What's the script?

[Kmcalpin]

Thanks to Jim McMahon and Derek Weir for their service and stepping into the breach in times of need. The club has seemed rudderless for some time though. 

All that said, I don't know what to make of their departure and the timing. It could mean several things. Maybe we are following Dundee's model, in part. Private investment would be very welcome, but would investors step forward if the Society is still the largest shareholders? If the Society is to sell a significant number of shares  then that would require members' approval. 

Tonight our future ownership/governance is uncertain. Some clarity is required ASAP. 

[joewarkfanclub]

Im not sure I agree with or fully understand what they are saying.

Surely the club requires to be run on a sustainable basis regardless of who owns it? In other words we only spend the cash we generate.

The Well Society was supposed to be operated as an overdraft facility to aid cash flow during points in the season when revenues were low and there was still expenditure requiring to be covered.

That being the case the money going in and out of the Society should actually accumulate over time and become larger as more donations are made.

If we are still running that model, then the only thing a wealthy shareholder would bring is a bigger overdraft facility.

If we are not running that model then I would be concerned as to what we are opening ourselves up to.

What wealthy benefactor is going to put investment into the club without wanting a return on that investment?

If they want a return, where is it going to come from? We went down that route before and it nearly finished us.

So, whilst it would appear to be a good thing that changes are afoot and we are to get new blood and new ideas into the club, I think we should be careful what we wish for.

The guys who have been running the club may not have done everything to the satisfaction of the fans and they will certainly have made mistakes. But they were all Motherwell fans and had the best interests of the club at heart.

I thank them for their service and hope they have left behind a plan to secure our future going forward.

[AllyMax]

I keep seeing the word 'investors' being used. I don't see it as a 'thing' in Scottish football. No one outside of Celtic generate any money. Investors always want a return. There are no returns in Scottish football. Look at Gretna, Dundee, Livingston, us and a myriad o of others who spent money that could never be recouped. The fact is, that most clubs are now living within their means, hence the quality of players we're seeing and the standard we're all competing with for players has gone downhill.

if you look at the last ten years, pretty much everyone has had a go at 3rd and also had a flirt with relegation. Alexanders last six months saw us go on a really awful run and basically not lose any ground in the league. The standard is pretty much the same for everyone and everyone will have good and shite seasons, but no one is going to have a consistent season or series of seasons, outside of the uglies. 

Getting used to living within your means (like any other business that exists) is something that football fans in Scotland need to learn to live with. If that puts your side in the championship or league 1, then thats what will happen. 

I would argue a league without the uglies may be financially worse, but recent history shows that pretty much every team in the league will start the season with a reslistic possibility of winning it. Teams can go back to breeding players and signing good youngsters, knowing that everyone else has no choice but to do the same. Trying to buy your way to competing with 2 teams with 100 x your resources will only ever end in tears.

 

[joewarkfanclub]

7 minutes ago, AllyMax said:

I keep seeing the word 'investors' being used. I don't see it as a 'thing' in Scottish football. No one outside of Celtic generate any money. Investors always want a return. There are no returns in Scottish football. Look at Gretna, Dundee, Livingston, us and a myriad o of others who spent money that could never be recouped. The fact is, that most clubs are now living within their means, hence the quality of players we're seeing and the standard we're all competing with for players has gone downhill.

if you look at the last ten years, pretty much everyone has had a go at 3rd and also had a flirt with relegation. Alexanders last six months saw us go on a really awful run and basically not lose any ground in the league. The standard is pretty much the same for everyone and everyone will have good and shite seasons, but no one is going to have a consistent season or series of seasons, outside of the uglies. 

Getting used to living within your means (like any other business that exists) is something that football fans in Scotland need to learn to live with. If that puts your side in the championship or league 1, then thats what will happen. 

I would argue a league without the uglies may be financially worse, but recent history shows that pretty much every team in the league will start the season with a reslistic possibility of winning it. Teams can go back to breeding players and signing good youngsters, knowing that everyone else has no choice but to do the same. Trying to buy your way to competing with 2 teams with 100 x your resources will only ever end in tears.

 

I think folk are reponding to this quote in the press release......

"It has become very clear over the last few years that for the club to operate on a sustainable basis, provide the manager with a competitive player budget, meet the vastly increased cost of our other activities including having a successful Woman’s Team and maintaining a fit for purpose Stadium, Training Ground and Academy facility, that it will require significant investment; funding on a similar scale to that received by many others in the SPFL."

[FirParkCornerExile]

I know I'm a natural pessimist but I find this all very worrying. I've never thought the Fan ownership model would take us anywhere. We have far too many folk heavy on criticism but light on support for the Society. I seriously can't see anyone queing up to take on a club where the support is so piss poor and the rising costs of running a club in the top division.

 

Somehow I don't see a "welcome to Wrexham" model waiting in the Wings.

[SteelmaninOZ]

To the outgoing board members I Thank you for your service and I wish you well in your future. 
 

As a club we will always struggle for income with the current amount of fans that turn up (thank goodness they do)is it any wonder we don’t have any money. We average around 4K fans for home games in a stadium rebuilt to hold 12k so where are the missing 8k fans? 

[joewarkfanclub]

19 minutes ago, SteelmaninOZ said:

To the outgoing board members I Thank you for your service and I wish you well in your future. 
 

As a club we will always struggle for income with the current amount of fans that turn up (thank goodness they do)is it any wonder we don’t have any money. We average around 4K fans for home games in a stadium rebuilt to hold 12k so where are the missing 8k fans? 

Our average home support has been around 4k for as long as I can remember. Even in the years we finished 2nd and 3rd or further back to the mid 90s when we challenged for the title, it didnt move much. John Boyle pretty much tried everything from signing players we couldnt afford to letting kids in for free. Nothing worked.

The biggest difference these days is that away supports have fallen drastically, so other than Rangers and Celtic we dont get anywhere near filling the South Stand.

[SteelmaninOZ]

6 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Our average home support has been around 4k for as long as I can remember. Even in the years we finished 2nd and 3rd or further back to the mid 90s when we challenged for the title, it didnt move much. John Boyle pretty much tried everything from signing players we couldnt afford to letting kids in for free. Nothing worked.

The biggest difference these days is that away supports have fallen drastically, so other than Rangers and Celtic we dont get anywhere near filling the South Stand.

Sad but true 

[El Grew]

Chickens coming home to roost I’m afraid. ☹️

[MJC]

Part-time football looming I reckon. It’s only a matter of time and relegation will seal the deal for it.

[FirParkCornerExile]

I've read a few Motherwell fans comments on social media who seem to read this announcement as new funding being announced. That's not how I read it . The statement says 

"The final stages of a fund-raising initiative are almost complete and will be ready to be shared early in the new year."

That's isn't the same as funding ready to come in , 

initiative means : the ability to assess and initiate things independently, the power of opportunity to act or to take charge.

I think those Motherwell fans thinking this is a new  announcement of new cash / investment will be sadly disappointed. To me it merely points to change in how we do things including looking for outside investment - which I don't think is sitting waiting in the wings.

I may be wrong but it concerns me a bit more than it does for others. That said I've never been a fan of the fan ownership and I say that as a society member. It has a limited scope when you have 4000 fans in good times or bad. If the model was so good , all the diddly clubs in the SPFL would do it. It's fine if you are Hearts with the kind of fan base they have.

Patrick Thistle operate a similar model to us and of a similar size club and they are stoney broke. They have fund raisers to pay players wages. 

 Concerning times, well for me anyway.

 

[FirParkCornerExile]

2 hours ago, MJC said:

Part-time football looming I reckon. It’s only a matter of time and relegation will seal the deal for it.

Maybe a bit overly pessimistic right now. However the fan ownership model for us will ultimately end up in relegation whether that's this season or 5 seasons from now. You cannot sustain top level football on an almost static income stream from the fans.

[steelboy]

11 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

It's been evident for a while now, especially since Burrows left that the club was not moving in the right direction, the shambles around dumping Alexander and a rushed bad appointment of Hammell, no replacement CEO appointed, signing off on dubious recruitment advice during the summer etc etc.

Maybe the club have finally realised that some changes are required and this is the 1st step, it will be Interesting to see how it develops as the club needs to get back on track both on and off the park.

Alexander got us into top 6 and Europe from the bottom of the league. It would have been ridiculous to sack him before the Sligo game. 

The only changes that matter at the club are manager and player recruitment. All our income streams - tickets, TV money, commercial, player sales - are impacted by on field results more than anything else. Bringing in better players is the only way to improve our financial position, the idea that someone is going to invest or use magic business skills to transform our position is a pipe dream.

The reality is that we will always be financially behind 5 or 6 clubs but we should also be able to stay in the league. If things go our way we can get top six or a cup run. The gap between us Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen is only going to get bigger. 

 

[steelboy]

11 hours ago, Coatsy said:

Yep i think this signals the end of the fan ownership experment

How?

It's not an experiment. As a fan owned club we have reached cup finals, finished 3rd, avoided relegation. Plenty of millionaire owned clubs in the same time period have failed to do that. 

The only type of buyer we will get are shady types like Livi and Accies that will use the club to move money around and skim whatever they can. 

Again if we sign a decent striker rather than Obika and Wilkinson, sign better a midfielder than Paton and bring in a centre back like Hartley or Aldred no one is talking about owner models. 

 

[FirParkCornerExile]

12 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Alexander got us into top 6 and Europe from the bottom of the league. It would have been ridiculous to sack him before the Sligo game. 

The only changes that matter at the club are manager and player recruitment. All our income streams - tickets, TV money, commercial, player sales - are impacted by on field results more than anything else. Bringing in better players is the only way to improve our financial position, the idea that someone is going to invest or use magic business skills to transform our position is a pipe dream.

The reality is that we will always be financially behind 5 or 6 clubs but we should also be able to stay in the league. If things go our way we can get top six or a cup run. The gap between us Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen is only going to get bigger. 

 

Not if our income streams remains static from the fans whilst everyone else in the league has rich benefactors who plough increasing money in each season.

Rangers, Celtic, Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock and Dundee all have supports that are bigger than ours. All have wealthy owners to supplement their bigger crowds. Even St Mirren have managed to increase their support beyond what we can achieve. That leaves Ross County, Livingstone and St Johnstone for us to compete against financially. Again RC and St Johnstone have wealthy owners supplementing their gate money. That leaves us and Livingston without wealthy owners Bank rolling the club and Livingston have just had the club taken over, whether that results in extra resources time will tell. 

We are an outlier in terms of financial resources as things stand and that can only get worse under the current fan model we have.

[FirParkCornerExile]

10 minutes ago, steelboy said:

How?

It's not an experiment. As a fan owned club we have reached cup finals, finished 3rd, avoided relegation. Plenty of millionaire owned clubs in the same time period have failed to do that. 

The only type of buyer we will get are shady types like Livi and Accies that will use the club to move money around and skim whatever they can. 

Again if we sign a decent striker rather than Obika and Wilkinson, sign better a midfielder than Paton and bring in a centre back like Hartley or Aldred no one is talking about owner models. 

 

If our financial model is so good why are we desperately seeking outside financial input. Even St Mirren whose have a similar fan model and have actually had a real kick in from fans taking their average gate to 6500 are strapped for cash. The fan model may work to a degree but long term it goes nowhere unless the fan base who own the club increases or are willing to put more money in. The fact we have 3700 society members is frankly pathetic. That won't sustain a full time SPFL club in the long term. Sure it is sustainable if we sella player for a million quid every season of we regularly get to cup finals but that's more of a hope and a prayer than realistic eventualities.

[El Grew]

Well, who’d have thought it?

Administration led us to fan ownership model. Could fan ownership model now take us back there? Possibly not, and I don’t want to be a doom merchant but these are alarming times for our football club.

Consider:

Public admission by CE and chairman, who are both preparing to bale out, that the club has serious funding issues. Relegation is a distinct possibility with all that entails in terms of severely reduced revenues. A gradual shrinking fanbase. A stadium that has and will continue to leach money. No chairman or CE for the foreseeable future. All this unrest and uncertainty must inevitably affect all of the employees at the club, most importantly of all, the players and management.

The big question now, is how can this be fixed?

[El Grew]

21 minutes ago, steelboy said:

How?

It's not an experiment. As a fan owned club we have reached cup finals, finished 3rd, avoided relegation. Plenty of millionaire owned clubs in the same time period have failed to do that. 

The only type of buyer we will get are shady types like Livi and Accies that will use the club to move money around and skim whatever they can. 

Again if we sign a decent striker rather than Obika and Wilkinson, sign better a midfielder than Paton and bring in a centre back like Hartley or Aldred no one is talking about owner models. 

 

I think you need to smell the coffee.

[steelboy]

11 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Not if our income streams remains static from the fans whilst everyone else in the league has rich benefactors who plough increasing money in each season.

We have outperformed Ross County, Kilmarnock, Dundee United with their rich owners. 

We don't have a Bowie or McGregor in our support. The Browns want out of St Johnstone. Santa is realer than the imaginary multi millionaire that some our support seem to think is on the horizon.

[steelboy]

14 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

If our financial model is so good why are we desperately seeking outside financial input. Even St Mirren whose have a similar fan model and have actually had a real kick in from fans taking their average gate to 6500 are strapped for cash. The fan model may work to a degree but long term it goes nowhere unless the fan base who own the club increases or are willing to put more money in. The fact we have 3700 society members is frankly pathetic. That won't sustain a full time SPFL club in the long term. Sure it is sustainable if we sella player for a million quid every season of we regularly get to cup finals but that's more of a hope and a prayer than realistic eventualities.

I don't think we are desperately seeking outside investment but if someone is daft enough to give us money obviously we will take it. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

1 minute ago, steelboy said:

I don't think we are desperately seeking outside investment but if someone is daft enough to give us money obviously we will take it. 

Oh I think we are.... Why else do we need " significant investment" and a "fund raising initiative" not my words the club's.

[steelboy]

Also there's no way St Mirren really have an average of 6500. They will have gave out loads of free kids season tickets.

[steelboy]

2 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Oh I think we are.

Based on what? Who has been approached?

[FirParkCornerExile]

1 minute ago, steelboy said:

Also there's no way St Mirren really have an average of 6500. They will have gave out loads of free kids season tickets.

Can you provide a link to that... St Mirren average attendance is 6331 our is 5509 and we give greater access to OF fans at home games. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

2 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Based on what? Who has been approached?

See my amendment to my original reply.