What's the script?

[dennyc]

9 minutes ago, steelboy said:

 

It's not an experiment. As a fan owned club we have reached cup finals, finished 3rd, avoided relegation. Plenty of millionaire owned clubs in the same time period have failed to do that. 

The only type of buyer we will get are shady types like Livi and Accies that will use the club to move money around and skim whatever they can. 

Again if we sign a decent striker rather than Obika and Wilkinson, sign better a midfielder than Paton and bring in a centre back like Hartley or Aldred no one is talking about owner models. 

 

And how are we to afford that recruitment?
 

Anyone who is surprised by this latest turn of events is not living in the real world. Money talks and the noises coming out of the Club for ages have been depressingly consistent. Without player sales we do not generate enough income to sustain our current position. Even with those sales, cup runs and a good league placement are a requirement..

And to achieve those on field successes you need to generate the funds to invest in decent players and limit the number of player purchases that don’t work out as hoped. How has that worked out of late? Questions certainly need to be asked on that score.

With only 3500 Members, not all contributing and with no big business or private investment, how on earth are we to generate enough income to compete at the current level? That’s the reality of the situation. As the quality of the squad diminishes, so does the possibility of player sales, youth investment and income from on field success. Our initial successes under fan ownership and the Turnbull sale only delayed the decline. And I say that as someone who signed up to the Society. 
 

I really hope and pray the investment initiative that is mentioned is successful otherwise I see us dropping to a level, on and off the field, that is sustainable. Just guessing, but I suspect the initiative will involve a share issue with fans and local businesses being asked to dig deep. Maybe a Save the ‘Well plea like happened with Hearts. Given the economic situation I think either would be a massive challenge.  
 

The only solution I see is private investment with the Society model being scrapped. Who is going to invest millions in the Club without being given a controlling interest, even if they invest without any real hope of financial return? Fan Ownership sounds fantastic and attracts lots of plaudits but clearly it requires more than Motherwell can offer. 
 

Worrying times. 

[joewarkfanclub]

For once, I actually agree with Steelboy.

Our current problems dont sit with the ownership model. They are down to poor decision making over the last 3 or 4 years where we have spunked shitloads of cash on sacking managers and moving on their sub standard players.

Even if we get a rich benefactor we must spend our cash wisely, otherwise we will be in hock to that benefactor. What happens when they pull the plug and want their cash back as they undoubtedly will?

Regardless of who runs the club, we need to live within our means. 

They way to generate more cash for investment is to make good decisions, become successful on the field of play and re-invest any rewards wisely.

Its only 6 years since we got to 2 cup finals in a season and since then we have developed and moved on around £5m worth of talent.

Its what we did with that money that is our current problem.

[joewarkfanclub]

PS For what its worth, Im not against bringing in investment from outside sources, but as others have said, it should be as a minority shareholding. The Well Society should always have 51% minimum so that any rogue investor cant sell us down the river.

[steelboy]

8 minutes ago, dennyc said:

And how are we to afford that recruitment?
 

The current Hibs manager was interviewed on the shortlist when Hammell got the job. Alexander took the job with decent experience. We can get a manager who's not a youth coach. 

Scouting/recruitment is different but there's no reason to stick with someone who hasn't delivered. Whoever suggested Wilkinson should be out the door, I'm sure there would be plenty of people who would want the job. 

 

[Great Balls of Shire]

10 hours ago, AllyMax said:

I keep seeing the word 'investors' being used. I don't see it as a 'thing' in Scottish football. No one outside of Celtic generate any money. Investors always want a return. There are no returns in Scottish football. Look at Gretna, Dundee, Livingston, us and a myriad o of others who spent money that could never be recouped. The fact is, that most clubs are now living within their means, hence the quality of players we're seeing and the standard we're all competing with for players has gone downhill.

if you look at the last ten years, pretty much everyone has had a go at 3rd and also had a flirt with relegation. Alexanders last six months saw us go on a really awful run and basically not lose any ground in the league. The standard is pretty much the same for everyone and everyone will have good and shite seasons, but no one is going to have a consistent season or series of seasons, outside of the uglies. 

Getting used to living within your means (like any other business that exists) is something that football fans in Scotland need to learn to live with. If that puts your side in the championship or league 1, then thats what will happen. 

I would argue a league without the uglies may be financially worse, but recent history shows that pretty much every team in the league will start the season with a reslistic possibility of winning it. Teams can go back to breeding players and signing good youngsters, knowing that everyone else has no choice but to do the same. Trying to buy your way to competing with 2 teams with 100 x your resources will only ever end in tears.

 

Great point, I used to think the Glasgow 2 leaving would be terrible because they brought the money in but if hearts , Aberdeen, even us now and again were in with a shout of league, they're would be great crowds at games .... would there be a great drop off in quality? We are all saying how poor the standard is just now, so probably not.

[Great Balls of Shire]

1 hour ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Not if our income streams remains static from the fans whilst everyone else in the league has rich benefactors who plough increasing money in each season.

Rangers, Celtic, Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock and Dundee all have supports that are bigger than ours. All have wealthy owners to supplement their bigger crowds. Even St Mirren have managed to increase their support beyond what we can achieve. That leaves Ross County, Livingstone and St Johnstone for us to compete against financially. Again RC and St Johnstone have wealthy owners supplementing their gate money. That leaves us and Livingston without wealthy owners Bank rolling the club and Livingston have just had the club taken over, whether that results in extra resources time will tell. 

We are an outlier in terms of financial resources as things stand and that can only get worse under the current fan model we have.

Think it's a stretch to say Killie and Dundee have bigger supports , maybe when they're going well and we are not, but I'd say it's eaksy peaksy.

[Richie]

Maybe the investment isn't via an indiviual as such, but the sale of assets (ie ground) to a developer and a move to an area nearby which is looking to be regenerated, with the possiblity os also having some sort of funding available?

[joewarkfanclub]

17 minutes ago, Richie said:

Maybe the investment isn't via an indiviual as such, but the sale of assets (ie ground) to a developer and a move to an area nearby which is looking to be regenerated, with the possiblity os also having some sort of funding available?

Always been wary about a move away from Fir Park, particularly with the recent investment in the stadium and pitch. However, the main stand is apparently in need of rennovation / replacement and we clearly dont have the money for that so we need to look at all options.

I wouldnt be against a move to Ravenscraig as there is an emotional tie to the old steelworks site that would sit fine with me and if we were able to generate funds from the sale of Fir Park to build something out there that was more modern and with better facilities, then we would be mad not to look at it. 

Would probably need a tie in with the council, who, from what Im led to believe, havent always been that supportive, so not sure how that would play out.

I would hope we could be a bit more adventurous in our design requirements though than some of the uninspiring grounds other clubs our size have gone with.

Only need to look at Scandinavia to see what can be achieved.

[Busta Nut]

fucking hell some folk aren't half pessimistic 

[joewarkfanclub]

3 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

fucking hell some folk aren't half pessimistic 

I blame the weather! 

[FirParkCornerExile]

21 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Think it's a stretch to say Killie and Dundee have bigger supports , maybe when they're going well and we are not, but I'd say it's eaksy peaksy.

They certainly do and to say otherwise ignores the facts. I'm not saying the difference is huge but they will always have higher attendances over a season than us.

[MJC]

For as long as I can remember our core support has always hovered around the 4k-5k mark at the very best and it’s dropped away from that in the last decade. I’ve said before our support has the potential to be bigger and better but we just have too many lazy, fair weather fans who just can’t be bothered going to Fir Park for run of the mill games. Cup finals, European games and they come out of the woodwork but otherwise they are nowhere to be seen.

[FirParkCornerExile]

17 minutes ago, MJC said:

For as long as I can remember our core support has always hovered around the 4k-5k mark at the very best and it’s dropped away from that in the last decade. I’ve said before our support has the potential to be bigger and better but we just have too many lazy, fair weather fans who just can’t be bothered going to Fir Park for run of the mill games. Cup finals, European games and they come out of the woodwork but otherwise they are nowhere to be seen.

Sadly that's true and they'd be the ones screaming the loudest if the club went tits up.

[Great Balls of Shire]

35 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

fucking hell some folk aren't half pessimistic 

Too right, but if you asked what would ideas they had going forward, they probably couldn't give you any, but could moan plenty 

[Busta Nut]

There is nothing insightful in suggesting the club needs investment. Mr McMahon has said it for years.Done little about it. Now the attempt to gain some is ready to go. Just as he is. 

[MJC]

33 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Sadly that's true and they'd be the ones screaming the loudest if the club went tits up.

I don’t doubt that and in my experience those types are also the ones who shout loudest about how much better they are than Old Firm glory hunters and the first to go down the “I’m a better Motherwell fan than you are” route particularly on here and social media. No doubt from the comfort of their armchair/the bowling club/the pub/the toilet etc.
 

Our support is, quite frankly, fucking shite, bar from the small core of regular diehards who never miss a game.

[bobbybingo]

51 minutes ago, MJC said:

Our support is, quite frankly, fucking shite, bar from the small core of regular diehards who never miss a game.

That's you out the running for our new chairman. And it won't be the diehards who save the club if it's in as bad a state as some are saying.

I wonder if Chris McClure stuck his panto money in an ISA?

[gaz7]

51 minutes ago, MJC said:

 

Our support is, quite frankly, fucking shite, bar from the small core of regular diehards who never miss a game.

I get the frustrations from all our fans now and theres no doubt apathy is one of biggest downfalls.  I myself have been at pretty much every game last 5 years but this year ive only been at 5 or 6 due to had other things on at start of season then realised that i cant be bothered as much as I was and not really missed it . Im going on sunday but really dont want to and thats down to in most part getting scudded from them that often with their fans lording it over us makes it not very enjoyable experience usually.

This is also the case with fans of all other teams and I feel if the league was upped to 16 with after 30 games a top 8 and bottom 8 with just 1 game each where you knew at start of season who you would play and where in split that it would give fresh impetus to a lot of teams. After the split teams that finished 1-4 would have 4 home games and 5-8 would have 3 home games with the same in bottom 8. Team 1 would have their 4 home games against 2345 and away against 678. Team 2 home against 3456 and  781 away etc etc.

I know it would make some teams having more away than home against certain teams but that happens the now with the split  and if teams know at start of season what happens then it makes it relatively fair IMO with all games meaning something up to split to secure more home games after

2 relegated with 3rd bottom in a playoff with 3rd from championship also means freshness every season and also easier for teams to get back promoted so no lengthy spells in seaside leagues that decimates teams e.g Falkirk,dunfermline,raith,accies,airdrie etc .

The amount of young scottish players not playing in our leagues is depressing and by expanding you would think they would get more of a chance and crowds would increase as not a lot of meaningless games and teams could build on good runs without playing one of them every 5 or so games

Teams in Scotland cannot grow due to nature of our league and I know all the usual will come out like we need 4 old firms a season etc but something needs to change as supports everywhere will continue to deplete as more and more will go to them as is being seen in aberdeen, dundee,gorgie and leith where traditionally people would go local but there are busses from these areas going to glasgow every week now. 

After all that heres hoping sunday can give us some christmas cheer

[Mad Dog]

2 hours ago, steelboy said:

Whoever suggested Wilkinson should be out the door, I'm sure there would be plenty of people who would want the job. 

 

Wilkinson is a quality finisher and it is not his fault that he has been pushed out wide or dropped into midfield. We need to play to his strengths to get the best out of him - probably wingers would be best but that isn't an option at the moment. His disallowed goal against St. Johnstone was a thing of beauty and, dare I say it, van Veen-esque in its execution. There's his equaliser against Ross County too, another quality finish.

[pretzel]

Apart from the initial John Boyle splurge and the brief run under Les we have always been skint. The club managed to dig themselves out of a hole under Chapman when I first started attending games, it always seems like a crisis is never far away i.e. Admin and Dempster overspend. Only a few seasons ago we were celebrating being totally debt free, took in some great transfer fees (one being a record) in the process.

You can't help but worry what's going on behind the scenes the last few years as many notable staff have left without being replaced.

Tbf looking at other clubs in the league similar in size to us if they were in our position at the moment then it would be panic stations for them. St Mirren were overspending last season which has continued this year a similar route we went down with Dempster looking for success, I think they posted 1.6 million in losses back in January. 

Livingston was recently taken over by a new chairman but they have some legal issues going on over a missing sum of money. Obviously they will be given notice, but with the impeding vote on getting rid of plastic pitches happening soon and the universal dislike for them you will imagine that will be a massive bill for Livi and Killie to foot as they will also have to invest in under soil heating.

St Johnstone similar to us had their budget slashed massively, the owner wants out of the club but he has valued McDiarmid park at like 20 or 30 million so it's unlikely they will sell soon. Even McGregor at County has curbed his spending in January when he generally has to rescue them.

[grizzlyg]

52 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

That's you out the running for our new chairman. And it won't be the diehards who save the club if it's in as bad a state as some are saying.

I wonder if Chris McClure stuck his panto money in an ISA?

I am positive Chris done that .......OH NO HE DIDN'T!! 😜😜

[Kmcalpin]

A small piece of the recently announced jigsaw, but it's important to emphasise that Derek Weir was always going to be a temporary stand in CEO. No shock then that he's going to stand down in a few months. 

[Toxteth O'Grady]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67754618

Quote

Motherwell 'stable' as chairman Jim McMahon & interim chief executive Derek Weir to stand down

Last updated on32 minutes ago32 minutes ago.From the sectionMotherwell

Stuart Kettlewell, Derek Weir and Jim McMahon have been criticised by some fans for the team's results

Motherwell are in a "stable condition", insists director Douglas Dickie after chairman Jim McMahon and interim chief executive Derek Weir announced they are to step down.

Dickie also said there is room in the budget for January signings and stressed there are no plans to move away from their fan-owned model.

The Well Society has been running the Fir Park club since 2016.

"Fans should not be worried," Dickie told BBC Scotland.

Weir is to leave by April, while McMahon will exit by the end of the season, with Dickie admitting the news "came a bit out of the blue".

He said: "Obviously, they are two major characters who have helped develop the club and I'm sad to see them go.

"But they leave the club in a stable condition."

McMahon, who has been chairman since 2016, said the club "will require significant investment", revealing a new "fund-raising initiative" is in the pipeline.

"We are fan-owned and we don't want to give that up," added Dickie, who is also co-chair of Well Society, which has recently expanded its board.

"We don't have any particular figure in mind. It could be a joint-venture, a partnership, let's see what comes forward in the new year."

Motherwell are on a 14-match winless streak and sit second bottom of the Premiership.

Asked if boss Stuart Kettlewell would be able to make additions to his squad next month, Dickie replied: "I would imagine there will be some money available for the manager if that's his decision."

Former vice-chairman Weir took up his role in April, three months after the departure of Alan Burrows to top-flight rivals Aberdeen, following an unsuccessful attempt to find a permanent successor.

McMahon, who will formally announce his departure at the club's annual meeting planned for February, has been a director since 2001 and was made chairman when the Well Society fans group took over the majority shareholding from businessman Les Hutchison.

"It has become very clear over the last few years that, for the club to operate on a sustainable basis, provide the manager with a competitive player budget, meet the vastly increased cost of our other activities, including having a successful woman's team and maintaining a fit for purpose stadium, training ground and academy facility, that it will require significant investment," McMahon said on Monday.

"The final stages of a fund-raising initiative are almost complete and will be ready to be shared early in the new year."

 

[David]

15 hours ago, AllyMax said:

Getting used to living within your means (like any other business that exists) is something that football fans in Scotland need to learn to live with. If that puts your side in the championship or league 1, then thats what will happen.

I think this is key.

Fans have grown accustomed to Motherwell not just being a top-flight club, but being a top-flight club that has never really been in serious danger of relegation. Sure, we've flirted with it a few times, but often we're finishing top six or even top four.

But the truth is, we're really not much bigger, if at all, than the likes of Dunfermline, Partick Thistle, and Falkirk. 

We're a fan-funded club not through choice, but because that's the only real option we have. It wasn't as if we were knocking back multi-million pound offers for the club to implement a fan model instead. It's where we're at. 

I'd rather we still had a club that the fanbase had a real say in the running of, even if it meant we eventually dropped down a division or so. 

When the alternative is most likely someone buying in who doesn't have the club's best interests at heart, I'll sacrifice our Premier League status to avoid that.

I'd rather watch a team in the Championship or Division 1 that is populated by young local talent and owned by the fans than watch a team of middle-of-the-road top-flight journeymen under the ownership of some consortium or individual who's never really around.

[wellsince75]

Having a core of youngsters coming through would be better by a country mile than the journeyman approach .

not expecting to create a faddy or turnbull evey year but our long line of players coming through has declined over the last 20 years . 
 

Like the idea of a model of bringing through youth with a sprinkling of experience . For this we need a long term plan and give someone like SK time to bring it to life