dennyc Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 13 minutes ago, gaz7 said: personal opinion i cant see any downside of a tie up with some big gun. All their knowledge , expertise and players etc etc can only be a good thing. Im reading a lot of the what ifs? this is bad thats bad etc etc when in reality anyyone wanting involved from so called big gun is obviously very astute in business and in all cases are billionaires and so the chance of them failing is a lot lower than some wee guy coming in with a couple of a million in his back pocket or continuing to be run by amateurs as a lot on here mostly say we are at the moment and have been for a while (not my view). Think of the positives. This is may take on it. I really don’t see where this B Club nonsense is coming from. Pure fiction and lacking in fact although it does make a good story. Given the terms of the Hibs deal, Foley purchases a minority share holding of under 30%. And has no direct control over football matters. The Board continues to run the show as happens everywhere. Again Foley is a minority. The deal must also to meet UEFA criteria re multi ownership. I have heard no suggestion that Foley is even seeking Security of Easter Road or other Hibs Assets although that could be a condition that would concern fans. . In return Hibs are getting £6m up front to be spent on facilities, youth development and transfers. With more funds to come for next season. Losing all their best players to other teams in the ownership Group? If they do move players it will be for a transfer fee as happens now given every team is a selling Club. Regulations are in place to ensure that market value is respected. And if they get loaned young prospects, where is the problem with that? Nobody complained about Biereth when we were the beneficiaries. The only nonsense we have not had spouted so far is that Doidge will be off to Vegas to play for Foley’s Ice Hockey team. Looking at our own circumstances I would be delighted with such an arrangement. Rather that than have impulsive egotists like Boyle and Hutchinson in charge. Or the alternative of being consigned to the lower leagues, turning into East Stirling or the like. I do accept that some fans do not like the way football is developing and passionately want Clubs to remain as they once were. Fair enough and I respect them for that. I just don’t think it is sustainable in most cases. Certainly not in top divisions. Where exactly is the additional danger of big business funding or supporting any Club? It is happening worldwide. The exact same financial dangers exist if a Club is family run, fan owned, Bank controlled or one man’s plaything. Funds can dry up or be withdrawn. Good luck to Hibs. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, dennyc said: Given the terms of the Hibs deal, Foley purchases a minority share holding of under 30%. And has no direct control over football matters. The Board continues to run the show as happens everywhere. Again Foley is a minority. The deal must also to meet UEFA criteria re multi ownership. I have heard no suggestion that Foley is even seeking Security of Easter Road or other Hibs Assets although that could be a condition that would concern fans. . In return Hibs are getting £6m up front to be spent on facilities, youth development and transfers. With more funds to come for next season. It's very clear what Hibs would be getting. What I'm wondering is, what exactly is Foley getting? From what I see, he's putting in some money to have no direct control over football matters. The board wouldn't change, and he gets no security of Hibs's assets. Guys like him don't spend their money for a laugh, despite what he claims. There's more to this, long-term, than what's being let on to the regular punter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, gaz7 said: personal opinion i cant see any downside of a tie up with some big gun. It depends on what you mean by a "big gun." An individual with money? Someone like Bill Foley, who fancies losing a few million for a laugh by "investing" in a Scottish football team? Or the ownership group of an already established English club that sees us as a feeder or "B team" of sorts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephmc1886 Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, dennyc said: This is may take on it. I really don’t see where this B Club nonsense is coming from. Pure fiction and lacking in fact although it does make a good story. Given the terms of the Hibs deal, Foley purchases a minority share holding of under 30%. And has no direct control over football matters. The Board continues to run the show as happens everywhere. Again Foley is a minority. The deal must also to meet UEFA criteria re multi ownership. I have heard no suggestion that Foley is even seeking Security of Easter Road or other Hibs Assets although that could be a condition that would concern fans. . In return Hibs are getting £6m up front to be spent on facilities, youth development and transfers. With more funds to come for next season. Losing all their best players to other teams in the ownership Group? If they do move players it will be for a transfer fee as happens now given every team is a selling Club. Regulations are in place to ensure that market value is respected. And if they get loaned young prospects, where is the problem with that? Nobody complained about Biereth when we were the beneficiaries. The only nonsense we have not had spouted so far is that Doidge will be off to Vegas to play for Foley’s Ice Hockey team. Looking at our own circumstances I would be delighted with such an arrangement. Rather that than have impulsive egotists like Boyle and Hutchinson in charge. Or the alternative of being consigned to the lower leagues, turning into East Stirling or the like. I do accept that some fans do not like the way football is developing and passionately want Clubs to remain as they once were. Fair enough and I respect them for that. I just don’t think it is sustainable in most cases. Certainly not in top divisions. Where exactly is the additional danger of big business funding or supporting any Club? It is happening worldwide. The exact same financial dangers exist if a Club is family run, fan owned, Bank controlled or one man’s plaything. Funds can dry up or be withdrawn. Good luck to Hibs. Well done. This bothers me, only tells me that fitba is globally fucked! It'll just be a big franchise and us fans will be fleeced and ignored. Anyone for tennis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 22 minutes ago, David said: It depends on what you mean by a "big gun." An individual with money? Someone like Bill Foley, who fancies losing a few million for a laugh by "investing" in a Scottish football team? Or the ownership group of an already established English club that sees us as a feeder or "B team" of sorts? What is Foley's track record? I've not been aware of anything of concern from the various organisations he has bought into. Football or otherwise. Or that he is into asset stripping or lining his pockets at the expense of an Organisation. Scotland has had its home grown share of those in the past and he does not fit that pattern. . The fact his Group has interests in numerous Clubs worldwide sets them apart from any Group with one established Club looking for a wee feeder Club. And with their money, why would they need a feeder Club? He could just buy who he wants. I understand your suspicion and caution. But I really don't see what the issue is in this case. Time will tell if it works out but I think it is interesting and exciting times ahead for Hibs. Certainly on a more stable basis than when Boyle decided we could take on the big boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 47 minutes ago, David said: What I'm wondering is, what exactly is Foley getting? From what I see, he's putting in some money to have no direct control over football matters. The board wouldn't change, and he gets no security of Hibs's assets. Guys like him don't spend their money for a laugh, despite what he claims. There's more to this, long-term, than what's being let on to the regular punter. Absolutely. It smacks of the Dundee United situation some years ago, when some "philanthropic" fans gave United several million pounds out of the goodness of their hearts with no strings attached. Their fans vigourously, no in fact aggressively, rebutted criticism or scepticism from others, who were making the very points you're making now. We all know that the s**t hit the fan when the truth came out later......these so called philanthropists took a hefty cut of some big transfer fees that came in. Guess what? The United fans went ballistic when the truth came out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuwell2 Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 I’ve mixed feeling on this, I can see where Dennyc is coming from and can broadly agree with it - although I’m confused with the egotistical Hutchison part as a guy who gives the club £1m, doesn’t put any conditions on what’s done with it and doesn’t ask for it back ain’t very egotistical in my book. On the main point of the - potential - future of the club, yes there seems to be benefits in some sort of tie in with others and at this moment in time there appears to be decent protection against investors screwing clubs but that can change and is possibly why people are investing so I’m nervous about that. Having said that the potential downside that we could be left dropping further behind our competitors and those below us leaving us a championship team or worse means that I think we must seriously look at the options before ruling them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 10 minutes ago, Stuwell2 said: I’ve mixed feeling on this, I can see where Dennyc is coming from and can broadly agree with it - although I’m confused with the egotistical Hutchison part as a guy who gives the club £1m, doesn’t put any conditions on what’s done with it and doesn’t ask for it back ain’t very egotistical in my book. On the main point of the - potential - future of the club, yes there seems to be benefits in some sort of tie in with others and at this moment in time there appears to be decent protection against investors screwing clubs but that can change and is possibly why people are investing so I’m nervous about that. Having said that the potential downside that we could be left dropping further behind our competitors and those below us leaving us a championship team or worse means that I think we must seriously look at the options before ruling them out. Fair play on the philanthropy shown by Hutchinson. My comment was more about the dictatorial way he ran the show until he had had enough and left, although as you rightly say he did not scupper us by withdrawing funds. Another discussion, but for me that entire process led us to the questionable structure we have today. But yeah, egotistical was possibly the wrong word. Apologies. But as far as the Hibs situation goes, if any astute american businessman with a good track record were to offer us £6m up front with little strings attached, then I would be all for it. There is a good article in the Scotsman regards the arrangement which covers a lot of the doubts folk have. Whether those folk are prepared to take his comments at face value is up to them. I also get that lots of people like to stick with tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 22 minutes ago, dennyc said: What is Foley's track record? I've not been aware of anything of concern from the various organisations he has bought into. Football or otherwise. Or that he is into asset stripping or lining his pockets at the expense of an Organisation. Scotland has had its home grown share of those in the past and he does not fit that pattern. . The fact his Group has interests in numerous Clubs worldwide sets them apart from any Group with one established Club looking for a wee feeder Club. And with their money, why would they need a feeder Club? He could just buy who he wants. I understand your suspicion and caution. But I really don't see what the issue is in this case. Time will tell if it works out but I think it is interesting and exciting times ahead for Hibs. Certainly on a more stable basis than when Boyle decided we could take on the big boys. Again, what does he get out of this? That's all I want to know. Why doesn't he lay out exactly what he gets from this? Beyond the warm fuzzies of being a good egg and all that, of course. 18 minutes ago, Stuwell2 said: On the main point of the - potential - future of the club, yes there seems to be benefits in some sort of tie in with others and at this moment in time there appears to be decent protection against investors screwing clubs but that can change and is possibly why people are investing so I’m nervous about that. Having said that the potential downside that we could be left dropping further behind our competitors and those below us leaving us a championship team or worse means that I think we must seriously look at the options before ruling them out. Again, the same question applies here. If, in theory, a bigger club wants to "affiliate" with a club like ours, the question is why? They obviously don't need us, so why are they doing it? And it's not so much getting screwed over that doesn't sit right with me. It's the fact that such relationships often change the club at its very core. It's extremely rare that extremely wealthy people or organisations part with their money without wanting something in return. If they were the type of people to do that, they wouldn't be where they are in life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 19 minutes ago, David said: Again, what does he get out of this? That's all I want to know. Why doesn't he lay out exactly what he gets from this? Beyond the warm fuzzies of being a good egg and all that, of course. Again, the same question applies here. If, in theory, a bigger club wants to "affiliate" with a club like ours, the question is why? They obviously don't need us, so why are they doing it? And it's not so much getting screwed over that doesn't sit right with me. It's the fact that such relationships often change the club at its very core. It's extremely rare that extremely wealthy people or organisations part with their money without wanting something in return. If they were the type of people to do that, they wouldn't be where they are in life. Fair comment I guess. But Foley and his Group do not appear to be fly by nights investing on a whim. And they don't appear (to my amateur eye) to be fleecing Clubs as per the Glaziers at Man Utd. With safeguards in place I think it is a great opportunity for Hibs. With old man Gordon popping his clogs and with his family perhaps less committed they were at a crossroads. But I agree they need to be careful as well as open minded. Foley has stuck with the Organisations he has invested in and eventually brought them success after gradual improvement. Even his first venture, the Ice Hockey team did the impossible and won the Stanley Cup. He is still involved and committed by all accounts. That augers well for his other involvements. Maybe the guys from the US that regularly post on here could tell us what the views are on him over there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 11 minutes ago, dennyc said: There is a good article in the Scotsman regards the arrangement which covers a lot of the doubts folk have. Whether those folk are prepared to take his comments at face value is up to them. I also get that lots of people like to stick with tradition. I'm very wary of anything the Scotsman writes about Hertz or Hibs. I recall a few years ago when Hearts were about £22m in debt and an article in said publication painted a very rosy picture of this debt situation. On reading it, I was almost going to ring Fir Park to plead with the powers that be to also run a £20m+ debt. What a great idea! If Hearts could do it why couldn't we? Then reality kicked in and I never did ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said: I'm very wary of anything the Scotsman writes about Hertz or Hibs. I recall a few years ago when Hearts were about £22m in debt and an article in said publication painted a very rosy picture of this debt situation. On reading it, I was almost going to ring Fir Park to plead with the powers that be to also run a £20m+ debt. What a great idea! If Hearts could do it why couldn't we? Then reality kicked in and I never did ring. Good point but I don't think Foley will have the same influence with the Scotsman as Anne Budge has. It is almost at Celtic and The Sun levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 minutes ago, dennyc said: Fair comment I guess. But Foley and his Group do not appear to be fly by nights investing on a whim. And they don't appear (to my amateur eye) to be fleecing Clubs as per the Glaziers at Man Utd. With safeguards in place I think it is a great opportunity for Hibs. With old man Gordon popping his clogs and with his family perhaps less committed they were at a crossroads. But I agree they need to be careful as well as open minded. Foley has stuck with the Organisations he has invested in and eventually brought them success and gradual improvement. Even his first venture, the Ice Hockey team did the impossible and won the Stanley Cup. He is still involved and committed by all accounts. That augers well for his other involvements. I'm certainly not saying he's shifty or has ulterior motives, but again, guys like him don't make their fortune by throwing it away on silly projects. His Vegas ice hockey team winning the Stanley Cup wasn't really "the impossible." The way US sports are set up, many teams have a good chance of winning their major trophy, especially if they can get into the playoffs and so on. Plus, the Knights are running at $200 million in annual revenue, which is a profit of just over $50 million. Plus, there's a lot to be gained from owning an NHL franchise. His aim of buying into that exclusive group makes perfect sense. A Scottish football club, though? I don't see him winning any titles any time soon, and the avenues for generating real funds aren't really there in our game. This suggests to me that the positives and gains to be made by him aren't entirely financial. He's also not for telling either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 Unreal as it sounds, £6m is nothing to the Knights and will likely be offset in some tax set up anyway. Hibs contributing to operate in profit and increasing that profit over the years might be all he is looking for on the financial front Stability. At the very least, and following the demise of Gordon. Foley's business sense will likely help them to that end. Any trophy success being the icing on the cake providing that fuzzy feeling you mentioned. Not in our world, but there are folk out there that have so much money they can afford to be less return driven. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, Hutchison was willing to invest without any real hope of meaningful return. And he was an astute self made multi millionaire who you would not expect to invest on a non return basis. Even allowing for sentiment. Maybe Foley just likes using his loose change to see what results he can achieve. Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 22 minutes ago, dennyc said: Maybe Foley just likes using his loose change to see what results he can achieve. Who knows? That last sentence sums up why I'm not too fond of that kind of situation. No one actually knows. Clubs in Scotland, like Dundee United, have shown they are happy to get a few dollars thrown at them. Taking the money and asking questions later seems to be the order of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 10 Report Share Posted February 10 Having no permanent CEO and a Chairman with one eye on the exit is no good. We’re sleepwalking to disaster and have been for some time now. I think this could be our year to go down and I've never thought that before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dossertillidie2 Posted February 10 Report Share Posted February 10 13 hours ago, wellfan said: Having no permanent CEO and a Chairman with one eye on the exit is no good. We’re sleepwalking to disaster and have been for some time now. I think this could be our year to go down and I've never thought that before. I feel we have been sleepwalking our way to disaster for a few years now. I am on the understanding that we have been seeking a beneficiary that can provide shortfall funding when we are not self sustainable /propped up by the society for approx 18months now , but has anyone heard any murmurs of anything at all since McMahon and weir came out and said they were looking to step down? even a rumor to give us hope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 Here's my question to those talking about us "sleepwalking our way to disaster." The consensus is that this term means someone or an organisation "proceeding towards a negative outcome or catastrophe without being fully aware of the consequences or taking appropriate action to prevent it. It suggests a state of being unaware, passive, or complacent in the face of impending danger or trouble, much like someone who is sleepwalking is unaware of their surroundings or actions." Yet we see the same people using this term on this forum openly admitting that the club has been "seeking a beneficiary that can provide shortfall funding when we are not self-sustainable/propped up by the society for approximately 18 months now." This would suggest that we're not "sleepwalking our way to disaster." The club is making plans and moves to bring in external funding. We need to realise, though, that it's not easy to do that. Companies that can claim to offer a solid business plan and a good chance of a decent return on investment find it difficult to bring in funding. A small Scottish football club that can offer a slim opportunity to make a profit on investment will find it incredibly hard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 14 minutes ago, David said: Here's my question to those talking about us "sleepwalking our way to disaster." The consensus is that this term means someone or an organisation "proceeding towards a negative outcome or catastrophe without being fully aware of the consequences or taking appropriate action to prevent it. It suggests a state of being unaware, passive, or complacent in the face of impending danger or trouble, much like someone who is sleepwalking is unaware of their surroundings or actions." Yet we see the same people using this term on this forum openly admitting that the club has been "seeking a beneficiary that can provide shortfall funding when we are not self-sustainable/propped up by the society for approximately 18 months now." This would suggest that we're not "sleepwalking our way to disaster." The club is making plans and moves to bring in external funding. We need to realise, though, that it's not easy to do that. Companies that can claim to offer a solid business plan and a good chance of a decent return on investment find it difficult to bring in funding. A small Scottish football club that can offer a slim opportunity to make a profit on investment will find it incredibly hard. It's merely a turn of phrase I use to sum up my assessment of recent years being that of decline, mistakes, and sticking plasters. I'm not alone in that assessment, although others do think differently, and that's fine. We can all reassess our position come summer, when we will hopefully and belatedly have a permanent CEO, a new Chair, and a new management and recruitment team. And all that should bring a strategic reset to alter the path described above. But, for now, it very much seems like a managed decay. I also don't think it's realistic for the Club to be touting for an investor(s) seeking a profit opportunity because I don't see us as a profitable entity at this stage. It could happen, though?! We're probably looking for a private benefactor(s) to come out of the woodwork, but I don't think that's realistic either, or it would've happened by now. Who knows what's been happening behind closed doors on that front in recent years; most of us on this forum certainly have our uneducated views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 35 minutes ago, David said: Here's my question to those talking about us "sleepwalking our way to disaster." The consensus is that this term means someone or an organisation "proceeding towards a negative outcome or catastrophe without being fully aware of the consequences or taking appropriate action to prevent it. It suggests a state of being unaware, passive, or complacent in the face of impending danger or trouble, much like someone who is sleepwalking is unaware of their surroundings or actions." Yet we see the same people using this term on this forum openly admitting that the club has been "seeking a beneficiary that can provide shortfall funding when we are not self-sustainable/propped up by the society for approximately 18 months now." This would suggest that we're not "sleepwalking our way to disaster." The club is making plans and moves to bring in external funding. We need to realise, though, that it's not easy to do that. Companies that can claim to offer a solid business plan and a good chance of a decent return on investment find it difficult to bring in funding. A small Scottish football club that can offer a slim opportunity to make a profit on investment will find it incredibly hard. Absolutely this. You can include the much bandied about "run by amateurs" in that. These guys may not be taking payment (or much of one at least) but they are successful in their own fields and doing their best to secure the future of our club. Looks to me, from the outside at least, that there is a plan in place and they are desperately trying to get it over the line. It would be great if it had been done by now, but we got a 40 minute interview explaining why that hasnt happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 4 minutes ago, wellfan said: It's merely a turn of phrase I use to sum up my assessment of recent years being that of decline, mistakes, and sticking plasters. I'm not alone in that assessment, although others do think differently, and that's fine. We can all reassess our position come summer, when we will hopefully and belatedly have a permanent CEO, a new Chair, and a new management and recruitment team. And all that should bring a strategic reset to alter the path described above. But, for now, it very much seems like a managed decay. I also don't think it's realistic for the Club to be touting for an investor(s) seeking a profit opportunity because I don't see us as a profitable entity at this stage. It could happen, though?! We're probably looking for a private benefactor(s) to come out of the woodwork, but I don't think that's realistic either, or it would've happened by now. Who knows what's been happening behind closed doors on that front in recent years; most of us on this forum certainly have our uneducated views. This is a far more nuanced response and one I wouldnt argue with. I think we all want whats best for the club and we would probably all point towards the same deficiencies. The difference would be who or what you attribute those deficiencies to and how we fix them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 minute ago, wellfan said: It's merely a turn of phrase I use to sum up my assessment of recent years being that of decline, mistakes, and sticking plasters. Yeah, but its a turn of phrase that doesn't really apply. It suggests the club is being run by people sitting idly by while we hurtle towards disaster, which isn't the case at all. 2 minutes ago, wellfan said: We can all reassess our position come summer, when we will hopefully and belatedly have a permanent CEO, a new Chair, and a new management and recruitment team. And all that should bring a strategic reset to alter the path described above. But, for now, it very much seems like a managed decay. I'm not sure it's been a managed decay, either. I think, and most fans won't like this, that we're basically "finding our level" as a fan-owned club. And we may find that our level isn't top-flight in Scottish football. Our average attendance, for example, is 8th in the top flight this season, above Ross County and Livingston. That would be third in the Championship. I have been saying for years that when we were finishing top six and qualifying for Europe, we were punching above our weight, and many disagreed, but the statistics tell a different story. As a fan-owned club, we rank as a bottom-half Premiership/top-half Championship club. If we don't have the money to compete at the very top of the Scottish game, we will eventually be found out. It happens. The law of averages catches everyone at some point, and there's only so long we can pull a rabbit out of the hat every season. Basically, we are where we're supposed to be. Near the bottom of the top flight. Success is avoiding relegation and staying financially viable as a football club. And that last point is crucial, by the way. I know that I'd rather still have a club to support in the Championship than spend money we don't have to try and finish 7th in the Premiership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Grew Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 48 minutes ago, David said: Here's my question to those talking about us "sleepwalking our way to disaster." The consensus is that this term means someone or an organisation "proceeding towards a negative outcome or catastrophe without being fully aware of the consequences or taking appropriate action to prevent it. It suggests a state of being unaware, passive, or complacent in the face of impending danger or trouble, much like someone who is sleepwalking is unaware of their surroundings or actions." Yet we see the same people using this term on this forum openly admitting that the club has been "seeking a beneficiary that can provide shortfall funding when we are not self-sustainable/propped up by the society for approximately 18 months now." This would suggest that we're not "sleepwalking our way to disaster." The club is making plans and moves to bring in external funding. We need to realise, though, that it's not easy to do that. Companies that can claim to offer a solid business plan and a good chance of a decent return on investment find it difficult to bring in funding. A small Scottish football club that can offer a slim opportunity to make a profit on investment will find it incredibly hard. Thank-you Mr Weir. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 6 minutes ago, David said: Yeah, but its a turn of phrase that doesn't really apply. It suggests the club is being run by people sitting idly by while we hurtle towards disaster, which isn't the case at all. It only doesn't apply because you've got a different opinion from me here. You don't know what's been happening behind closed doors, nor do I, hence the varied opinions bandied on here. 9 minutes ago, David said: I'm not sure it's been a managed decay, either. I think, and most fans won't like this, that we're basically "finding our level" as a fan-owned club. And we may find that our level isn't top-flight in Scottish football. Our average attendance, for example, is 8th in the top flight this season, above Ross County and Livingston. That would be third in the Championship. I have been saying for years that when we were finishing top six and qualifying for Europe, we were punching above our weight, and many disagreed, but the statistics tell a different story. As a fan-owned club, we rank as a bottom-half Premiership/top-half Championship club. If we don't have the money to compete at the very top of the Scottish game, we will eventually be found out. It happens. The law of averages catches everyone at some point, and there's only so long we can pull a rabbit out of the hat every season. Basically, we are where we're supposed to be. Near the bottom of the top flight. Success is avoiding relegation and staying financially viable as a football club. And that last point is crucial, by the way. I know that I'd rather still have a club to support in the Championship than spend money we don't have to try and finish 7th in the Premiership. You may be content with dropping to the Championship, but I am not. We've been a top-flight club since my birth year, and that's what I want to maintain. I don't have a problem finishing 7/8th in the Premiership, which should be achievable given our scale and without breaking the bank. And amongst that, we should hope to occasionally fight for the top six or scrap our way to 9th or 10th, but crucially with some fun cup runs and exciting youth development thrown into the mix. Top six and European football is now more or less unachievable because of the financial clout and success of others in the league. All of that is good enough for me. What isn't good enough for me is the complete shit show of the past few years which has led to a viewpoint developing in our fanbase that we aren't good enough for the Premiership. We are good enough; the past 38+ years highlight that, and we'll only have ourselves to blame if that ends this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 7 minutes ago, wellfan said: I don't have a problem finishing 7/8th in the Premiership, which should be achievable given our scale and without breaking the bank. And amongst that, we should hope to occasionally fight for the top six or scrap our way to 9th or 10th, but crucially with some fun cup runs and exciting youth development thrown into the mix. Top six and European football is now more or less unachievable because of the financial clout and success of others in the league. All of that is good enough for me. What isn't good enough for me is the complete shit show of the past few years which has led to a viewpoint developing in our fanbase that we aren't good enough for the Premiership. We are good enough; the past 38+ years highlight that, and we'll only have ourselves to blame if that ends this year. I agree with this. We have roughly the 8th biggest budget/attendance in the League. Finishing 8th is par for the course. Finishing higher than that is a good season. Finishing lower than that is a poor season. Cup runs and young players coming through are the wee extras that make things enjoyable and gives you the energy and enthusiasm to keep going. So far this season we are on course to finish 8th and we have seen Lennon Miller come through and look like our next big talent. Its the Cups where we have been really disappointing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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