David Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 11 minutes ago, wellfan said: It only doesn't apply because you've got a different opinion from me here. You don't know what's been happening behind closed doors, nor do I, hence the varied opinions bandied on here. Well, no. We do know what's been going on behind closed doors to an extent. For example, we know the club have been talking to potential investors, and we know they have been engaged with a marketing company to try to help drive interest and brand awareness. So, by that very fact alone, the sleepwalking into disaster phrase isn't applicable. You may not like or rate what the leadership team have done, but that's a different story. 13 minutes ago, wellfan said: You may be content with dropping to the Championship, but I am not. Nope, not content. Just saying that if it was a choice of spending money we don't really have in order to try to keep up with the likes of Killie and St Mirren, then I'd rather not. Big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 I think we have got to accept the fact that without some form of inward investment our place in the pecking order is going to drop. Ourselves St Johnstone, Livingston abd St Mirren are all in the same boat having to try and compete against teams with more money than us either by way of larger supports or sugar daddies and that's something we're just going to have to accept. Some seasons we'll land lucky with a good managerial appointment and/or a squad that gels from the off and we punch above our weight, other seasons we will struggle along at the bottom end of the table or even get relegated. That's always been the Motherwell way and we just have to get on with the ups and downs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 21 minutes ago, David said: Well, no. We do know what's been going on behind closed doors to an extent. For example, we know the club have been talking to potential investors, and we know they have been engaged with a marketing company to try to help drive interest and brand awareness. So, by that very fact alone, the sleepwalking into disaster phrase isn't applicable. You may not like or rate what the leadership team have done, but that's a different story. Nope, not content. Just saying that if it was a choice of spending money we don't really have in order to try to keep up with the likes of Killie and St Mirren, then I'd rather not. Big difference. As I said above, we can all reassess come the summer and see if the leadership team's work and talk comes to anything other than more failure or sticking plasters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 minute ago, wellfan said: As I said above, we can all reassess come the summer and see if the leadership team's work and talk comes to anything other than more failure or sticking plasters. You also need to remember that the leadership team we have is more than happy to step aside if a more qualified candidate is willing to come in and do the job. I guess it depends if any highly capable and experienced CEOs fancy coming into a job where they have a very tight budget, and are tasked with enticing someone with a lot of money to part with their cash for little to no return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 29 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said: So far this season we are on course to finish 8th and we have seen Lennon Miller come through and look like our next big talent. If you look at the run of games ahead of us and the results of most of those behind us, I don't see how we finish 8th. I think we'll be lucky to scrape 10th. Imagine we finished 11th and got Morton in the play-offs. Miller is the only positive thing this season; it's just a shame he got his injury when he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 3 minutes ago, David said: I guess it depends if any highly capable and experienced CEOs fancy coming into a job where they have a very tight budget, and are tasked with enticing someone with a lot of money to part with their cash for little to no return. Perhaps this is the type of challenge that drives people to such jobs. I'm not of that managerial/leader mindset, but many are. The vacancy doesn't have to be seen as a negative; it's also an exciting opportunity to help lead a Premiership club. The budget should also be better by summer, given we won't be funding a bloated squad or three management teams. At the end of the day, if we still can't attract and secure a suitable candidate by the end of the season, questions will have to be asked of who's making that judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 3 hours ago, wellfan said: Perhaps this is the type of challenge that drives people to such jobs. I'm not of that managerial/leader mindset, but many are. The vacancy doesn't have to be seen as a negative; it's also an exciting opportunity to help lead a Premiership club. The budget should also be better by summer, given we won't be funding a bloated squad or three management teams. At the end of the day, if we still can't attract and secure a suitable candidate by the end of the season, questions will have to be asked of who's making that judgement. it really depends. The job at Motherwell will likely appeal more to a younger, less experienced candidate looking to make his or her name in the industry. The job is far from a negative. All I'm saying is that it'll be tough to attract someone who is both highly capable and experienced. With experience tends to come more money. As for the financial repercussions of paying off management teams, let's wait and see how we get on over the next few months. I wouldn't be surprised if fans are clamouring for a sacking before the season is out, thus repeating the cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyMax Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 3 hours ago, wellfan said: If you look at the run of games ahead of us and the results of most of those behind us, I don't see how we finish 8th. I think we'll be lucky to scrape 10th. Imagine we finished 11th and got Morton in the play-offs. Miller is the only positive thing this season; it's just a shame he got his injury when he did. Are all the other teams around us who can hardly buy a point, like Ross Co and St J getting special permission to play teams from a different league in the run up to the split or are they playing the same teams as us ? Are St J and Ross Co more likely to take points off Hearts, Rangers and Celtic (or even Aberdeen and Hibs) than we are ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 22 minutes ago, David said: As for the financial repercussions of paying off management teams, let's wait and see how we get on over the next few months. I wouldn't be surprised if fans are clamouring for a sacking before the season is out, thus repeating the cycle. It would not be surprising at all, particularly given the cup exit and the forthcoming difficult fixtures. However, at least the current management team is only under contract for this season, meaning any potential payoff wouldn't likely break the bank, and it would only repeat the cycle if we gave a new management team anything more than the rest of this season. Relegation, on the other hand, might well break the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 2 minutes ago, wellfan said: It would not be surprising at all, particularly given the cup exit and the forthcoming difficult fixtures. However, at least the current management team is only under contract for this season, meaning any potential payoff wouldn't likely break the bank, and it would only repeat the cycle if we gave a new management team anything more than the rest of this season. Relegation, on the other hand, might well break the club. You know who the new management team would be, we all do. Do you believe they'd do a better job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 4 hours ago, wellfan said: If you look at the run of games ahead of us and the results of most of those behind us, I don't see how we finish 8th. I think we'll be lucky to scrape 10th. Imagine we finished 11th and got Morton in the play-offs. Miller is the only positive thing this season; it's just a shame he got his injury when he did. Not sure how you can come to that conclusion when you look at the form of the teams around and behind us. They have won just as few games as we have over the course of the season and our form since Xmas has been better than most of them. We have games against Aberdeen (twice), Hibs and Livvy before the split and another round of fixtures against the bottom 6. Not saying we have any right to think we will definitely beat any of them, but by the same token, none of them have any right to think they are going to beat us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 5 hours ago, David said: Yeah, but its a turn of phrase that doesn't really apply. It suggests the club is being run by people sitting idly by while we hurtle towards disaster, which isn't the case at all. I'm not sure it's been a managed decay, either. I think, and most fans won't like this, that we're basically "finding our level" as a fan-owned club. And we may find that our level isn't top-flight in Scottish football. Our average attendance, for example, is 8th in the top flight this season, above Ross County and Livingston. That would be third in the Championship. I have been saying for years that when we were finishing top six and qualifying for Europe, we were punching above our weight, and many disagreed, but the statistics tell a different story. As a fan-owned club, we rank as a bottom-half Premiership/top-half Championship club. If we don't have the money to compete at the very top of the Scottish game, we will eventually be found out. It happens. The law of averages catches everyone at some point, and there's only so long we can pull a rabbit out of the hat every season. Basically, we are where we're supposed to be. Near the bottom of the top flight. Success is avoiding relegation and staying financially viable as a football club. And that last point is crucial, by the way. I know that I'd rather still have a club to support in the Championship than spend money we don't have to try and finish 7th in the Premiership. Im not sure we were punching above our weight to be honest. I do agree with the sentiment that there's no point in breaking the bank to end up a couple of places higher in the SPL but surely we should be aiming for higher than just above relegation. I think it's a self belief thing as much as anything else. When Alexander took over in the beginning you could see the difference in confidence. Same with Kettlewell - we just seem to hit these slumps in form and lose confidence- and it's been like that for as long as I've been watching bar a few seasons. Personally. I just want a season where I'm not sitting watching away games on twitter watching from behind my hands - because my nerves can't stand it. I completely agree that it's an unequal league and I think that sometimes gets forgotten. We are supposed to be able to compete with teams like Celtic on our budget - and that isn't me saying we should just turn up and roll over either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 44 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: You know who the new management team would be, we all do. Do you believe they'd do a better job? No, it's not my job, but it doesn't mean I can't call for change. And yes, I think we could find something better than what we've had to accept/endure so far this season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 36 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said: Not sure how you can come to that conclusion when you look at the form of the teams around and behind us. They have won just as few games as we have over the course of the season and our form since Xmas has been better than most of them. We have games against Aberdeen (twice), Hibs and Livvy before the split and another round of fixtures against the bottom 6. Not saying we have any right to think we will definitely beat any of them, but by the same token, none of them have any right to think they are going to beat us. I hear what you're saying, but Morton showed the rest of our bottom-dwelling rivals how to nullify our one-dimensional style and easily score against us. And, County game aside, Kettlewell and the team haven't given us much to show they're capable of turning draws and defeats into victories. A dogfight is incoming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 13 minutes ago, wellfan said: I hear what you're saying, but Morton showed the rest of our bottom-dwelling rivals how to nullify our one-dimensional style and easily score against us. And, County game aside, Kettlewell and the team haven't given us much to show they're capable of turning draws and defeats into victories. A dogfight is incoming. Oh, no doubt about that. I think Livvy are gone. Just dont see any way back for them. Play off place should be between ourselves, Ross County and St Johnstone. However, despite our awful run, our form since Xmas has managed to drag Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee into the equation. Given how much more money all of them have spent, Id be pretty concerned if I was them. The fact that all these teams need to play each other and will cut each others throats is a plus for me. We just need to try and make sure we are the last man standing. Big few weeks coming up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 37 minutes ago, wellfan said: No, it's not my job, but it doesn't mean I can't call for change. And yes, I think we could find something better than what we've had to accept/endure so far this season. You're right, it's not your job to find a new manager, but I didn't actually ask who you wanted because, as I said, we all know they would promote from within at this stage. That's if they sacked Kettlewell, which Weir made pretty clear wasn't happening. It's been a poor season so far, no doubt about that, but we won't finish bottom and are currently at least 4 points above the play-off place - that's allowing for Ross County winning their game in hand and taking our far superior goal difference into account. In the last 5 league games we've picked up 8 points more than the bottom 2 and at least 4 more than anyone else in the bottom 6. Taking all that into account, do you honestly feel it would be worth rolling the dice on Frail, Foster, Clarkson or the currently unemployed and mega cheap Mr X at this point of the season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 18 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: Taking all that into account, do you honestly feel it would be worth rolling the dice on Frail, Foster, Clarkson or the currently unemployed and mega cheap Mr X at this point of the season? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 15 minutes ago, wellfan said: Yes. Fair enough. That would certainly be a big call. You'd have to hope sacking Kettlewell wouldn't piss the players off for starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purestate Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 33 minutes ago, wellfan said: Yes. Seriously, now I do think you are maybe being provocative for the sake of it. At this stage there is absolutely nothing to suggest Kettlewell and our squad won’t perform just as well or better than those around us. The Morton game is no more a definitive indicator on how all the rest of the season will go than the County game. RC aren’t looking for a permanent manager which shows how they are thinking and the “box office” tosser at Aberdeen is no long term solution for them either. A lot of clubs now limping towards the end of this season. I’d rather stick than twist thanks very much. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 It is a valid suggestion that Kettlewell's record over the past 20 games or so brings his suitability as our Manager into question. I don't really think anybody can argue with that and the debate on here has been robust. Whether for or against his retention. Setting aside contributing factors such as finance, injuries etc etc. But if those statistics are going to be the stick to beat him with then there are more recent statistics that point in another direction. Going on the basis that the current tables and form guide on the BBC site are accurate. If they are inaccurate then please dive in. Over the past 5 League games we have secured 9 points and are unbeaten. Only Celtic, Rangers and Hearts have a better record. Livi and County have amassed 1 point each, S J 5 points. More surprising perhaps is that Hibs have only gained 2 points and Aberdeen 3 over that same period. So in effect some folk want to ditch Kettlewell when we are performing better in the League than the vast majority of our rivals, in particular those sitting below us in the table. That makes no sense. In fact the stats suggest a corner has been turned. Then again those stats can change very quickly although even if we lose tomorrow we will still have a better 5 game record than 6 other teams, including Aberdeen. The time to make the decision is at season end. The time to change Manager is well gone for now. A change now would only add to the risk of relegation and I have yet to read of any realistic replacement that is available or would want the job. When that question is asked all we get is the cop out "That's not my job" Of course statistics can be contrived to suit any argument. Should we look at the last 20 games, 40 games even, or 10 games, 5 games? Each will provide a different picture. All that really matters is our final league position and ultimately that will be the deciding factor. But the demands will continue. It appears to have become personal for some, rather than logical. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 15 minutes ago, purestate said: Seriously, now I do think you are maybe being provocative for the sake of it. At this stage there is absolutely nothing to suggest Kettlewell and our squad won’t perform just as well or better than those around us. The Morton game is no more a definitive indicator on how all the rest of the season will go than the County game. RC aren’t looking for a permanent manager which shows how they are thinking and the “box office” tosser at Aberdeen is no long term solution for them either. A lot of clubs now limping towards the end of this season. I’d rather stick than twist thanks very much. Au contraire, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Kettlewell and our squad will perform just as well or better than those around us. As you noted, the Morton cup game is no more a definitive indicator of how the rest of the season will go than the County league game is. However, what is an indicator of our probable league form is the almost baron run we've witnessed from September to now, excepting the Livi and County games. If we stick, I think the almost baron run will most likely continue, which is what I thought last year, and it's probably too late now anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 15 minutes ago, wellfan said: Au contraire, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Kettlewell and our squad will perform just as well or better than those around us. As you noted, the Morton cup game is no more a definitive indicator of how the rest of the season will go than the County league game is. However, what is an indicator of our probable league form is the almost baron run we've witnessed from September to now, excepting the Livi and County games. If we stick, I think the almost baron run will most likely continue, which is what I thought last year, and it's probably too late now anyway. I would've thought the best indicator of how the rest of the season will go for us and our relegation rivals is how it has gone so far. You could measure that by checking how many points each team has amassed up till now, since it's the number of points that will determine who stays up and who drops, nothing else. Seems bloody obvious, but obviously not everyone considers it the most relevant statistic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 5 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: I would've thought the best indicator of how the rest of the season will go for us and our relegation rivals is how it has gone so far. You could measure that by checking how many points each team has amassed up till now, since it's the number of points that will determine who stays up and who drops, nothing else. Seems bloody obvious, but obviously not everyone considers it the most relevant statistic. I'd say that the points tally only matters at the split and the end of the season when they're counted to confirm standings. A lot can happen between now and then, including the couple of games in hand for those below us. However, if we're currently averaging 1.04 points per league game this season and there are 38 games, that should leave us with 39.54 points by the end of the season, which is usually the magic number for 10th. If that's how it ends and we're safe, then job done for a shit season, but we all know it's not as easily predictable as that, as we can't just assume that the second half of the season will pan out much like the first half for any team. We could even improve, as could Ross County, but I don't see it. I see 10th at best for the season, but the fear remains that we could be teetering close to 11th in March. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purestate Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, wellfan said: . If we stick, I think the almost baron run will most likely continue, which is what I thought last year, and it's probably too late now anyway. I guess we’re all just going to have to find out together. I’m obviously a bit more optimistic that we’ll take enough points from those around us, especially after the split. I suspect neither of us want County to get enough of a new manager bounce to make a difference. Like him/loathe him Adam’s probably called County’s quality correctly and my take is Levein won’t add anything more than he has already to a poor StJ side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 On 2/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, wellgirl said: Im not sure we were punching above our weight to be honest. I do agree with the sentiment that there's no point in breaking the bank to end up a couple of places higher in the SPL but surely we should be aiming for higher than just above relegation. When you look at our finances, our wage bill, and the size of our crowds, we're pretty much sitting where we should be in the league as it stands. Every season, there's a club or two that punch above their weight for any number of reasons. It could be a good run of squad fitness, a few good signings, or a manager and squad that gel well together. In seasons past, we've been among those clubs, finishing in the top six. We've also watched Livingston do it as well. This season, it's Kilmarnock, St Mirren and Dundee to an extent. In general, the top six clubs in the top flight of Scottish football in any given season should be (in no particular order) Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, and Dundee United. While we've been performing above what we should be, we've seen Dundee United, Aberdeen, and Hibs regularly underperform. Anywhere from 7th to 12th is really where we could expect to finish in any given season, but we always hope to do better. more importantly, we plan financially to finish 10th and have no cup runs, so anything above and beyond that is a bonus. On 2/12/2024 at 8:55 PM, wellfan said: Au contraire, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Kettlewell and our squad will perform just as well or better than those around us. As you noted, the Morton cup game is no more a definitive indicator of how the rest of the season will go than the County league game is. However, what is an indicator of our probable league form is the almost baron run we've witnessed from September to now, excepting the Livi and County games. If we stick, I think the almost baron run will most likely continue, which is what I thought last year, and it's probably too late now anyway. No, there is something to suggest we'll perform just as well or better than those around us. Form over the past 25 or so games. You can't just dismiss that. As things stand, 25 games into the season, we've won more games than Livingston and Ross County and the same number of games as St Johnstone. Only Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, and Kilmarnock have lost fewer games than we have. We've also scored the most goals out of all the bottom six sides, with only the Old Firm, Hearts and Dundee scoring more. Only St Johnstone has conceded fewer goals than us in the bottom six. So, as things stand, we've won more games than two of our immediate relegation rivals and the same number of games as another, but we have two games in hand on one rival and one in hand on another. We've lost the fewest games in the bottom six, scored the most goals in the bottom six, and only one team in the bottom six has conceded fewer. So yeah, there's a fair bit to suggest that Kettlewell and our squad will perform better or just as well as those around us. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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