2024/25 Ins & Outs Discussion

[wellgirl]

6 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

I will put my hand up and say SK should have went after the 3-0 Ross Co pumping but he has slowly turned things around and deserves a summer transfer window.  I feel he is learning but has to stop over thinking and complicating things.

Comes across as a decent guy and definitely has a united dressing room. No signs of players downing tools.....we are just poor at times.

COYW 

I do understand the point you are making and I actually thought he would walk if we hadn't got that point at St Johnstone a few days later. The pressure would have been on if we had lost that game as well. 

Why should managers go every time we hit a crap run? We can't afford to be replacing and paying off managers every other season.

Unless we are rooted to the bottom next season he deserves to see out his contract. 

Plus. He's got managerial experience and he wants to be at Motherwell. And as you say he's got the dressing room. 

[David]

17 hours ago, Big Stall said:

Whacked off p&b. Im sure plenty can be said in support & in opposition of their veracity.....

What that tells me is that we're the worst defensive team in the league. Goals conceded are never just down to a single player, including the goalkeeper. It's a reflection of our defending as a unit, and primarily the defensive abilities and performances of the defence, which includes the keeper.

[Spiderpig]

9 minutes ago, David said:

What that tells me is that we're the worst defensive team in the league. Goals conceded are never just down to a single player, including the goalkeeper. It's a reflection of our defending as a unit, and primarily the defensive abilities and performances of the defence, which includes the keeper.

Actually there are 3 teams below us in terms of goals conceded,  Livi, Ross County and Dundee so we're not the worst. As for goals scored we're joint 4th with Hearts, behind Celtic, Rangers and Hibs. 

[steelboy]

The strange thing about this season is before the split we conceded 20 goals against the top 5 teams and 31 against the six teams outside the Euro spots. 

So 1.33 goals a game against the better teams and 1.72 goals a game against the bottom teams.

[wellgirl]

27 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Actually there are 3 teams below us in terms of goals conceded,  Livi, Ross County and Dundee so we're not the worst. As for goals scored we're joint 4th with Hearts, behind Celtic, Rangers and Hibs. 

I think that table if I'm correct was placing Kelly as the worst keeper because of the number of clean sheets compared to other goalies. But as you say other teams have conceded more goals 

[David]

39 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Actually there are 3 teams below us in terms of goals conceded,  Livi, Ross County and Dundee so we're not the worst. As for goals scored we're joint 4th with Hearts, behind Celtic, Rangers and Hibs. 

I was meaning in relation to the info provided in that post about Kelly. The main point was that we can't hold the keeper solely responsible for clean sheets, as it's a team effort. 

You're right though, we're not the worst defensively as far as goals conceded is concerned.

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, David said:

I was meaning in relation to the info provided in that post about Kelly. The main point was that we can't hold the keeper solely responsible for clean sheets, as it's a team effort. 

You're right though, we're not the worst defensively as far as goals conceded is concerned.

I take your point RE Kelly, he's the last line of defence, if the defenders in front of him are not doing their job then it makes his job a lot harder. 

Stop the crosses coming in and you'll stop a lot of the goals we concede

[wellgirl]

Just now, Spiderpig said:

I take your point RE Kelly, he's the last line of defence, if the defenders in front of him are not doing their job then it makes his job a lot harder. 

Stop the crosses coming in and you'll stop a lot of the goals we concede

Absolutely 

[Big Stall]

1 hour ago, David said:

I was meaning in relation to the info provided in that post about Kelly. The main point was that we can't hold the keeper solely responsible for clean sheets, as it's a team effort. 

You're right though, we're not the worst defensively as far as goals conceded is concerned.

Kelly is definatley saddled with rubbish infront of him no arguament there. He has however thrown a barrow load into his own net this season. By the standards he set in his first two seasons he has been very poor this year.

[weeyin]

1 hour ago, Big Stall said:

Kelly is definatley saddled with rubbish infront of him no arguament there. He has however thrown a barrow load into his own net this season. By the standards he set in his first two seasons he has been very poor this year.

I also think making him captain has contributed to his dip in form. You see it happen to some players when the additional responsibilities on game days in training takes away some of their focus.

[dennyc]

39 minutes ago, weeyin said:

I also think making him captain has contributed to his dip in form. You see it happen to some players when the additional responsibilities on game days in training takes away some of their focus.

I think this is fair comment. But I'm not sure who the alternative choice as leader could be, given that almost everyone else has been in and out of the team. Another part of the rebuild required. Miller in time perhaps but that is a long way off.  Butcher and Casey were obvious choices at season start but they have had their own issues to overcome without being burdened with Captaincy. And anyway, the players seem comfortable with Kelly.

But to bring some balance to this Kelly debate. Every one of our defenders has made multiple errors this season, leading to goals conceded. And that includes untouchables McGinn and Gent. The entire team shares responsibility for our defensive failings.

As for the Aberdeen game I wonder if Kelly's loudest critics actually bothered to watch the game. Kelly was all that stood between us and a 3 or 4 nil hiding in the second half. Strange how anything good he does is ignored by some. And, yes, he frustrates me at times as well but then so do they all. 

[Mad Dog]

9 hours ago, weeyin said:

I also think making him captain has contributed to his dip in form. You see it happen to some players when the additional responsibilities on game days in training takes away some of their focus.

Yeah, agreed and I'm thinking of Carl McHugh.

[steelboy]

9 hours ago, dennyc said:

 

As for the Aberdeen game I wonder if Kelly's loudest critics actually bothered to watch the game. Kelly was all that stood between us and a 3 or 4 nil hiding in the second half. Strange how anything good he does is ignored by some. And, yes, he frustrates me at times as well but then so do they all. 

Aberdeen had five shots on target and Lennon Miller headed the first one off the line defending a corner about 55 minutes in. The second shot on target was the goal from a corner after an hour. 

Of the three saves he made I can think of two. The shot from outside the box which was straight at him and the shot from the right hand of the box which he saved at the near post. Neither were great saves. 

Add in his nonsense at the end of the game that almost gave away a goal and it was another joke performance from him. 

[Kmcalpin]

9 hours ago, dennyc said:

I think this is fair comment. But I'm not sure who the alternative choice as leader could be, given that almost everyone else has been in and out of the team.

Fair point. Add to that, that we the fans, don't know the personalities in the squad and its hard to come up with an answer. What this conundrum does highlight is that the team lacks an onfield leader, something many of us have been saying for some time.  

[bobbybingo]

39 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Aberdeen had five shots on target and Lennon Miller headed the first one off the line defending a corner about 55 minutes in. The second shot on target was the goal from a corner after an hour. 

Of the three saves he made I can think of two. The shot from outside the box which was straight at him and the shot from the right hand of the box which he saved at the near post. Neither were great saves. 

Add in his nonsense at the end of the game that almost gave away a goal and it was another joke performance from him. 

I don't go with the 'worst keeper in the league' stuff, but Kelly does look awful nervy to me, which might well be having an effect on what is not the world's greatest defence. We could certainly find a better option out there, but we saw the list of worse options we've suffered the other day. Overall, a parting of the ways might be best for both parties at this point.

The success rate of transfers at our level is reckoned to be somewhere between 40% and 50%. That's about right for this season's recruitment, so we're unlikely to see much improvement next year unless we can hold onto our best players - which isn't going to happen. Any new manager would be in exactly the same position, looking to find gems on free transfers or loan deals, and a quick glance around our rivals tells you how often that happens. We'll have another meh squad because we operate in a meh league with nae money to buy proven, consistent quality.

[Kmcalpin]

12 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

I don't go with the 'worst keeper in the league' stuff, but Kelly does look awful nervy to me, which might well be having an effect on what is not the world's greatest defence. We could certainly find a better option out there, but we saw the list of worse options we've suffered the other day. Overall, a parting of the ways might be best for both parties at this point.

The success rate of transfers at our level is reckoned to be somewhere between 40% and 50%. That's about right for this season's recruitment, so we're unlikely to see much improvement next year unless we can hold onto our best players - which isn't going to happen. Any new manager would be in exactly the same position, looking to find gems on free transfers or loan deals, and a quick glance around our rivals tells you how often that happens. We'll have another meh squad because we operate in a meh league with nae money to buy proven, consistent quality.

Some truth in what you say, but I'm more optimistic. SK will have more money available to him for a start. Not in terms of the gross amount but certainly in terms of the net amount. Wages for the likes of Barry Maguire, Conor Wilkinson, Nathan McGinley, Callum Butcher etc will be freed up to spend on newcomers. These players contributed little to our campaign this term but did eat up a substantial part of the wages budget. Hopefully Jon Obika too.  On the debit side, yes we'll lose Blair Spittal for sure. Maybe Theo Bair and Lennon Miller - but those moves are by no means certain. As for the rest of the OOC players, there's no-one I'm desperate to keep. Maybe some other youngsters coming through too?

There will be huge departure and arrival list this summer, but even if we only attain a 50% success rate in incomers then we should still strengthen. Add to that, that SK will now know his squad better and will be aware of weaknesses.

[bobbybingo]

51 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Some truth in what you say, but I'm more optimistic. SK will have more money available to him for a start. Not in terms of the gross amount but certainly in terms of the net amount. Wages for the likes of Barry Maguire, Conor Wilkinson, Nathan McGinley, Callum Butcher etc will be freed up to spend on newcomers. These players contributed little to our campaign this term but did eat up a substantial part of the wages budget. Hopefully Jon Obika too.  On the debit side, yes we'll lose Blair Spittal for sure. Maybe Theo Bair and Lennon Miller - but those moves are by no means certain. As for the rest of the OOC players, there's no-one I'm desperate to keep. Maybe some other youngsters coming through too?

There will be huge departure and arrival list this summer, but even if we only attain a 50% success rate in incomers then we should still strengthen. Add to that, that SK will now know his squad better and will be aware of weaknesses.

I know it doesn't sound like it, but I'm always optimistic, with a healthy dose of realism thrown in. The dosage is probably increasing with every passing year.

[StAndrew7]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

Some truth in what you say, but I'm more optimistic. SK will have more money available to him for a start. Not in terms of the gross amount but certainly in terms of the net amount. Wages for the likes of Barry Maguire, Conor Wilkinson, Nathan McGinley, Callum Butcher etc will be freed up to spend on newcomers. These players contributed little to our campaign this term but did eat up a substantial part of the wages budget. Hopefully Jon Obika too.  On the debit side, yes we'll lose Blair Spittal for sure. Maybe Theo Bair and Lennon Miller - but those moves are by no means certain. As for the rest of the OOC players, there's no-one I'm desperate to keep. Maybe some other youngsters coming through too?

There will be huge departure and arrival list this summer, but even if we only attain a 50% success rate in incomers then we should still strengthen. Add to that, that SK will now know his squad better and will be aware of weaknesses.

I would absolutely be looking to retain McGinn; from what I've heard there's a deal there for him to stay and he's good with it, but wants to make sure we're staying in Premiership first.

I'd also be keen to retain SODs, particularly if Kettlewell wants to keep the back three; I think he's a really good option as a right side wide centre back. I think his pace has slowed (he's never been the quickest, I'll admit) but he is still a capable and relatively reliable option/pro to have around.

If it's a toss of a coin between Bevis and SODs, in our current system I'd probably want to keep Bevis and just tell him to get the ball to fuck whenever it comes near him to minimise his brainfarts. I can see us keeping SODs and losing Bevis, though.

It's going to have a very busy summer, we essentially need to replace the entire spine of our team, including finding some creativity with Spittal going and Slattery's future also unclear.

We're looking at a rough requirement for what, 2 goalkeepers, 4 defenders (2x CB, 2x WB), 3 midfielders, 2 or 3 forwards (striker, winger(s))? Now, that's assuming none of the current crop of young players break into the first team. I'm expecting at least one or two across those positions to do so.

[FirParkCornerExile]

1 hour ago, StAndrew7 said:

I would absolutely be looking to retain McGinn; from what I've heard there's a deal there for him to stay and he's good with it, but wants to make sure we're staying in Premiership first.

I'd also be keen to retain SODs, particularly if Kettlewell wants to keep the back three; I think he's a really good option as a right side wide centre back. I think his pace has slowed (he's never been the quickest, I'll admit) but he is still a capable and relatively reliable option/pro to have around.

If it's a toss of a coin between Bevis and SODs, in our current system I'd probably want to keep Bevis and just tell him to get the ball to fuck whenever it comes near him to minimise his brainfarts. I can see us keeping SODs and losing Bevis, though.

It's going to have a very busy summer, we essentially need to replace the entire spine of our team, including finding some creativity with Spittal going and Slattery's future also unclear.

We're looking at a rough requirement for what, 2 goalkeepers, 4 defenders (2x CB, 2x WB), 3 midfielders, 2 or 3 forwards (striker, winger(s))? Now, that's assuming none of the current crop of young players break into the first team. I'm expecting at least one or two across those positions to do so.

Mugabi can go anytime, hasnt progressed one bit in his time with us. Still makes the same basic mistake he always did and too regularly as all players make mistakes. .

[StAndrew7]

9 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Mugabi can go anytime, hasnt progressed one bit in his time with us. Still makes the same basic mistake he always did and too regularly as all players make mistakes. .

I'm not sure he was ever going to progress that much with us given where we signed him from. He was signed to do a job, has done it relatively well over the time he's been with us but, along with the rest of our back line, has had an absolute nightmare this season and is (rightly, I guess) being judged on that rather than the body of his work.

A clean break does make some sense, particularly if we want to bring in a "proper" centre back type to play centrally in the three and hopefully provide more leadership in the back line and the team in general.

[dennyc]

7 hours ago, steelboy said:

Aberdeen had five shots on target and Lennon Miller headed the first one off the line defending a corner about 55 minutes in. The second shot on target was the goal from a corner after an hour. 

Of the three saves he made I can think of two. The shot from outside the box which was straight at him and the shot from the right hand of the box which he saved at the near post. Neither were great saves. 

Add in his nonsense at the end of the game that almost gave away a goal and it was another joke performance from him. 

Do you also keep stats on errors you see others making, or is it only a select few you choose to highlight? Comes across that you are just sitting there desperate for Kelly, SOD or Spittal to slip up. Surprised you ignored SOD's one slip where he sclaffed the ball into the crowd. Kelly was far from the worst player on Saturday. Given how poor you say he was, I find it surprising that the Motherwell fans at the game did not turn on him. . Out of curiosity, were you at the game or is your assessment based on TV highlights? Or maybe his supposed salary?

Strange you did not have anything to say about the crosses from Gent that almost reached the North Sea, or Shaw and Nicholson hiding and refusing to challenge for the ball umpteen times. Or Bair passing the buck rather than having a shot. How about McGinn giving the ball away when under no pressure. Or Casey going walkabout.  Or Miller caught dreaming when SOD cut the ball back to him. I repeat, every one of our players....no matter their quality.... regularly make mistakes. Some seem exempt from criticism.

[steelboy]

17 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Do you also keep stats on errors you see others making, or is it only a select few you choose to highlight? Comes across that you are just sitting there desperate for Kelly, SOD or Spittal to slip up. Surprised you ignored SOD's one slip where he sclaffed the ball into the crowd. Kelly was far from the worst player on Saturday. Given how poor you say he was, I find it surprising that the Motherwell fans at the game did not turn on him. . Out of curiosity, were you at the game or is your assessment based on TV highlights? Or maybe his supposed salary?

 

I watched the live stream.

I'm not desperate for them to slip up, it just keeps happening whether it's SOD gifting pens or Kelly doing the same idiotic routine where he retreats back to his line as the ball comes in at every corner. 

It was just a point about him saving us from a hiding when he only made three saves in the whole game. 

[dennyc]

1 minute ago, steelboy said:

I watched the live stream.

I'm not desperate for them to slip up, it just keeps happening whether it's SOD gifting pens or Kelly doing the same idiotic routine where he retreats back to his line as the ball comes in at every corner. 

It was just a point about him saving us from a hiding when he only made three saves in the whole game. 

Three decent saves. And I regard a 4-0 defeat as a hiding.  If others had done the basics as well as Kelly, we would have at least drawn.

[wellgirl]

3 minutes ago, steelboy said:

I watched the live stream.

I'm not desperate for them to slip up, it just keeps happening whether it's SOD gifting pens or Kelly doing the same idiotic routine where he retreats back to his line as the ball comes in at every corner. 

It was just a point about him saving us from a hiding when he only made three saves in the whole game. 

It's not just SOD that's at fault though. Our entire back line have been problematic this season but some players seem to be criticised more than others. 

[steelboy]

5 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Three decent saves. And I regard a 4-0 defeat as a hiding.  If others had done the basics as well as Kelly, we would have at least drawn.

It would have been some afternoon's work if he made zero saves.