santheman Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 Kettlewell is between a rock and a hard place. Does he sign young, fit as a butchers dog, injury free players or does he go with seasoned pros with experience of playing at SPL level and take a chance with fitness and injury issues Damned if he does damned if he doesn't. If he signed a load of young guys with no experience of the SPL and they turned out to be mince then he would be getting lambasted for not signing experienced pros and vice versa. The market and budget we"re operating in probably means thats our choice. It's a roll of the dice either way and nothing will change unless we get an Infusion of serious cash to let us compete with most of the other SPL clubs. Most seasons we win a watch with players but there will be one when we don't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 15 minutes ago, Spiderpig said: I take your point but for me i think the reality is that the players we are signing are first and foremost the ones we can afford, and are willing to come to the Shire to play football. Yes certain players have a longer history of injuries than others but if one of those players is available and affordable and wants to join the club, and SK and the staff think they will improve the team, are we really going to say no thanks we are concerned with your injury record. Using that approach we will sign nobody, Louis Moult would fit that category but he seems to be doing OK at Tannadice, so yes the Injuries are unfortunate but no reason not to sign a player. If we can afford a load of wages on a bunch of risks as well as on the subsequent last-minute signings to replace said risks, I am sure we could afford and attract 1 or 2 players in key positions who aren't the equivalent of retired Blackpool Beach donkeys. Let's not forget that Kettlewell said he'd learned his lesson after Obika-gate. He hasn't. He's taken a punt again on more than one injury prone player and now he's got himself and the club in a deep financial hole of shite. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 Looking at the three players causing most of the debate. Halliday - Age 33 in a couple of months. We are his tenth senior Club, including loans. A decent player in his day but who hardly featured for Hearts latterly due to injury and was unable to force his way back into the team, prior to joining us on loan. Previously left Rangers following a similar injury record. Failed to impress when he came to us in last years' January window. Apparently we were committed to signing him on a permanent basis as part of that Loan deal. Apart from a decent performance against Clyde he has failed to impress this season and looks even more cumbersome and slow than he did last season. Every tackle he receives seems to cause him injury. As a positive, takes a decent corner. Callachan - At age 30 has played for six clubs plus a couple of loan placements. Suffered a broken leg in January 2020 and more recently an ACL injury which ruled him out for all of last season. Featured briefly against Ross County, suffered a hamstring injury and is once again out for an 'extended period'. Nicholson - Age 29 and broke into the Hearts team at age 18. Averaged around 30 games a season until leaving under freedom of contract for the US. Fairly successful in the States prompting a move to England where he featured for two seasons before suffering a hip injury and subsequently returned to the States. Picked up a serious ankle injury and released by his Club. Joined us last season and, after a quiet start, earned himself a two year contract. Scored excellent goals against Livi. Featured in pre season matches but now injured and out for an 'extended period'. Looking at the history I can just about see a case for signing Nicholson, although a two year deal seems generous given recent injuries. I cannot come up with any sane argument as to why we signed Halliday or Callachan. Both were massive risks, eating up precious funds. And risks which have come back to bite us on the backside. Is anybody seriously surprised at how things have worked out so far? I think that inevitability is what frustrates me most. The knock on effect of signing these three players plus other injuries is that a 17 year old kid is expected to carry the midfield on his young back. No wonder he is struggling and looks knackered. And there is no prospect of things improving soon. How long until Miller will be unavailable through injury or exhaustion? It also looks like we will once again be carrying a bloated squad with a good number injured or not considered good enough to feature. The jury is still out on most of the other new recruits as well as the youth players who stepped up. Early days some will say, but we are up and running and the 'getting the business done early' has hardly reaped rewards. Kettlewell and the recruitment team could certainly not have foreseen injuries to Blaney, Slattery, McGinn and Paton each of whom had enjoyed lengthy spells injury free. But for those other three the buck stops entirely with Kettlewell and his team. I just hope Koutroumbis is not another one with a dubious injury history that will be added to their questionable recruitment policy. I have stood by Kettlewell throughout but the start to this season and the repetition of a speculative recruitment policy is proving me wrong. And that is setting aside performance on the pitch. Match day atmosphere could turn very toxic very soon. The signs are already there. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizzlyg Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 My worry is this is Kettlewell's 3rd transfer window and have things improved? No doubt he will just fire the "project Bair " card every time which of course was a master stroke but he has also made some howlers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 46 minutes ago, grizzlyg said: My worry is this is Kettlewell's 3rd transfer window and have things improved? No doubt he will just fire the "project Bair " card every time which of course was a master stroke but he has also made some howlers Exactly this. I can accept we take a punt on somebody like Bair, given his fitness record and the minimal cost first up. It worked out better than anyone on here expected so credit SK and his team for that. By all means find another ' Bair project'. SK has earned that chance. But Halliday, Callachan and Nicholson are nothing like the Bair situation. They are a repeat of the Soure and Obika disasters, except even more costly. Koutroumbis may be similar but hopefully not. So in two seasons he has signed at least five players who had a horrible injury record and contributed almost nothing in their time with the club (so far in the case of the first three). Can anyone come up with any Kettlewell 'injury projects' that have actually worked out? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 2 hours ago, dennyc said: Looking at the three players causing most of the debate. Halliday - Age 33 in a couple of months. We are his tenth senior Club, including loans. A decent player in his day but who hardly featured for Hearts latterly due to injury and was unable to force his way back into the team, prior to joining us on loan. Previously left Rangers following a similar injury record. Failed to impress when he came to us in last years' January window. Apparently we were committed to signing him on a permanent basis as part of that Loan deal. Apart from a decent performance against Clyde he has failed to impress this season and looks even more cumbersome and slow than he did last season. Every tackle he receives seems to cause him injury. As a positive, takes a decent corner. Callachan - At age 30 has played for six clubs plus a couple of loan placements. Suffered a broken leg in January 2020 and more recently an ACL injury which ruled him out for all of last season. Featured briefly against Ross County, suffered a hamstring injury and is once again out for an 'extended period'. Nicholson - Age 29 and broke into the Hearts team at age 18. Averaged around 30 games a season until leaving under freedom of contract for the US. Fairly successful in the States prompting a move to England where he featured for two seasons before suffering a hip injury and subsequently returned to the States. Picked up a serious ankle injury and released by his Club. Joined us last season and, after a quiet start, earned himself a two year contract. Scored excellent goals against Livi. Featured in pre season matches but now injured and out for an 'extended period'. Looking at the history I can just about see a case for signing Nicholson, although a two year deal seems generous given recent injuries. I cannot come up with any sane argument as to why we signed Halliday or Callachan. Both were massive risks, eating up precious funds. And risks which have come back to bite us on the backside. Is anybody seriously surprised at how things have worked out so far? I think that inevitability is what frustrates me most. The knock on effect of signing these three players plus other injuries is that a 17 year old kid is expected to carry the midfield on his young back. No wonder he is struggling and looks knackered. And there is no prospect of things improving soon. How long until Miller will be unavailable through injury or exhaustion? It also looks like we will once again be carrying a bloated squad with a good number injured or not considered good enough to feature. The jury is still out on most of the other new recruits as well as the youth players who stepped up. Early days some will say, but we are up and running and the 'getting the business done early' has hardly reaped rewards. Kettlewell and the recruitment team could certainly not have foreseen injuries to Blaney, Slattery, McGinn and Paton each of whom had enjoyed lengthy spells injury free. But for those other three the buck stops entirely with Kettlewell and his team. I just hope Koutroumbis is not another one with a dubious injury history that will be added to their questionable recruitment policy. I have stood by Kettlewell throughout but the start to this season and the repetition of a speculative recruitment policy is proving me wrong. And that is setting aside performance on the pitch. Match day atmosphere could turn very toxic very soon. The signs are already there. Perhaps the loss of Spittal is also why the midfield is struggling just now - that and Slattery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodo Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 6 minutes ago, wellgirl said: Perhaps the loss of Spittal is also why the midfield is struggling just now - that and Slattery. SK knew Spittal was leaving and done nothing about it . Slattery spent most of his time on his backside and was leaving if he hadn’t got injured 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yabba's Turd Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 16 minutes ago, Yodo said: SK knew Spittal was leaving and done nothing about it . Slattery spent most of his time on his backside and was leaving if he hadn’t got injured Done nothing? , another speculation as fact post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodo Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 2 minutes ago, Yabba's Turd said: Done nothing? , another speculation as fact post. Where is his replacement then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 30 minutes ago, wellgirl said: Perhaps the loss of Spittal is also why the midfield is struggling just now - that and Slattery. No doubt Spittal is a factor. A huge one. Slattery also but less so as his absence should have been planned for. But SK opted to play the injury lottery....times three. Halliday. Callachan and Nicholson. Nobody can deny that, surely? Four times if you take into account he knew Slattery was possibly out for several months after season start.With at least one of the three doing nothing in a lengthy loan period to justify a permanent contract. I think it was a farcical strategy. Take a punt on one maybe, but all three? And I'm still struggling to come up with an injury gamble SK has taken that worked out. His track record on that front is hopeless. I hope the CEO has had a word in his ear, but I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 1 hour ago, dennyc said: But Halliday, Callachan and Nicholson are nothing like the Bair situation. They are a repeat of the Soure and Obika disasters, except even more costly. Koutroumbis may be similar but hopefully not. So in two seasons he has signed at least five players who had a horrible injury record and contributed almost nothing in their time with the club (so far in the case of the first three). Can anyone come up with any Kettlewell 'injury projects' that have actually worked out? Wilkinson was gubbed with injuries as well and had to be paid off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizzlyg Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 Callachan and Halliday only on one year deals but probably guaranteed coaching roles cos heyyyyyyy they are nice guys, yes I say that with loads of sarcasm. However I actually don't mind Halliday, he is only playing regularly due to injury issues we have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 Pretty much every single player we sign is a gamble on one level or another. They're either unproven at our level, older guys whose best days are behind them and we're hoping to squeeze a couple of seasons out of them or guys who have had injuries that we might not have been able to sign if they didn't have a couple of dents in them. And most clubs our size are doing the same thing (St Mirren signed Dunne and O'Hara from ourselves with their injury records, Dundee United went for Moult). Are other clubs simply being luckier or are their flaws in our training methods or physio/medical approach? That's a separate question.. Even our signings that have worked out in the past have been gambles Moult, Kiprè and Marvin Johnson? All unproven at our level. Aldred? Persona non grata at a shite Bury team. Chris Porter, we were told that we would never keep him fit. Tony Watt? Lazy, wouldn't apply himself. Basically there's no guarantees when we sign any player one way or another.. The only signing I perhaps have an issue with is Callachan. While Halliday (played loads of European games, experienced player to help an inexperienced midfield) and Nicholson (decent pedigree) have records that you could argue justify a gamble on them, I'm not sure you could say the same about Callachan's history... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 59 minutes ago, MelvinBragg said: Pretty much every single player we sign is a gamble on one level or another. They're either unproven at our level, older guys whose best days are behind them and we're hoping to squeeze a couple of seasons out of them or guys who have had injuries that we might not have been able to sign if they didn't have a couple of dents in them. And most clubs our size are doing the same thing (St Mirren signed Dunne and O'Hara from ourselves with their injury records, Dundee United went for Moult). Are other clubs simply being luckier or are their flaws in our training methods or physio/medical approach? That's a separate question.. Even our signings that have worked out in the past have been gambles Moult, Kiprè and Marvin Johnson? All unproven at our level. Aldred? Persona non grata at a shite Bury team. Chris Porter, we were told that we would never keep him fit. Tony Watt? Lazy, wouldn't apply himself. Basically there's no guarantees when we sign any player one way or another.. The only signing I perhaps have an issue with is Callachan. While Halliday (played loads of European games, experienced player to help an inexperienced midfield) and Nicholson (decent pedigree) have records that you could argue justify a gamble on them, I'm not sure you could say the same about Callachan's history... As you say, every player we sign is a gamble. But how many of those you correctly list as successes were signed by Kettlewell? It is his record I am questioning. That is the present and, of those with a poor injury record, I am struggling to find a success. Quite the opposite. As for Halliday, he has the experience you mention but how would you rate his loan spell with us? Was it good enough to justify the cost of a permanent contract? Based on actual contribution with us and not history at other clubs. By your reckoning, perhaps we should be considering an offer to Ryan Jack. Nicholson showed some promise but was also anonymous at times. Aberdeen away as an example. But I could understand taking a gamble on him alone, but not all three. For me that was reckless. So we agree re Nicholson and Callachan I think. But not regards our Manager and his signing record/policy. Let's see how all three work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 7 minutes ago, dennyc said: As you say, every player we sign is a gamble. But how many of those you correctly list as successes were signed by Kettlewell? It is his record I am questioning. That is the present and, of those with a poor injury record, I am struggling to find a success. Quite the opposite. As for Halliday, he has the experience you mention but how would you rate his loan spell with us? Was it good enough to justify the cost of a permanent contract? Based on actual contribution with us and not history at other clubs. By your reckoning, perhaps we should be considering an offer to Ryan Jack. Nicholson showed some promise but was also anonymous at times. Aberdeen away as an example. But I could understand taking a gamble on him alone, but not all three. For me that was reckless. So we agree re Nicholson and Callachan I think. But not regards our Manager and his signing record/policy. Let's see how all three work out. You can't predict injury though can you. And you know some of the previous injuries to Callachan were what you would call freak injuries - leg break. Acl. I personally take my hat off to anyone who plays again after an injury like that. I think there's a difference between being injury prone and having injuries that have happened out of nowhere. Like Slattery did his ACL, so should future clubs be put off by that? I hope everyone who is currently injured recovers and kicks on and that's all you really can hope for. I also think it's been made worse by the fact we lost Bair - and aren't scoring. Spittal too has been a big loss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 5 hours ago, santheman said: Kettlewell is between a rock and a hard place. Does he sign young, fit as a butchers dog, injury free players or does he go with seasoned pros with experience of playing at SPL level and take a chance with fitness and injury issues Damned if he does damned if he doesn't. If he signed a load of young guys with no experience of the SPL and they turned out to be mince then he would be getting lambasted for not signing experienced pros and vice versa. The market and budget we"re operating in probably means thats our choice. It's a roll of the dice either way and nothing will change unless we get an Infusion of serious cash to let us compete with most of the other SPL clubs. Most seasons we win a watch with players but there will be one when we don't. Great post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 34 minutes ago, wellgirl said: You can't predict injury though can you. And you know some of the previous injuries to Callachan were what you would call freak injuries - leg break. Acl. I personally take my hat off to anyone who plays again after an injury like that. I think there's a difference between being injury prone and having injuries that have happened out of nowhere. Like Slattery did his ACL, so should future clubs be put off by that? I hope everyone who is currently injured recovers and kicks on and that's all you really can hope for. I also think it's been made worse by the fact we lost Bair - and aren't scoring. Spittal too has been a big loss I understand Callachan had not played for 18 months due to serious injury. And here we are, he is injured yet again. The first time he takes to the field in earnest. Are we surprised he is injured again? Is it just bad luck? Halliday was injured for much of his later time at Hearts and at Rangers. He did little to provide encouragement in his loan spell with us and looked far from fit. Well off the pace. He needed game time we were told. After a full pre season and regular game time how do you think he is performing and does he look fit to you? Is he just unlucky? Nicholson at least provided some hope during his loan/trial period despite injuries which had sidelined him for a lengthy spell. So I can understand his signing. More bad luck though? My point is about minimising risk when signing players and thus giving a greater chance of success. Giving that bad luck less of a chance. Following Spittal's departure and knowing that Slattery would be absent for several months I think it was reckless to bring in three midfielders each with serious injury concerns and with little or no game time amongst them. Risk was not minimised. And so we are now relying on a 17 year old to save the day. And will likely have to use a good deal of the Bair money to shore things up. Maybe SK has just been unlucky as you suggest (Paton injury being an example). But he has previous with regard to injury punts not working out. I hoped he was learning from previous experiences but the signs so far are hardly encouraging. Setting the midfield aside, there are other new recruits with injury concerns. More bad luck? Genuine question. Can you name me any player with a poor injury record immediately prior to joining us that Kettlewell has turned into a success? I am seriously struggling to come up with one. But several failures spring to mind. Basically, I think SK and Motherwell need to have a close look at the signing strategy. Perhaps the desire to get deals done early doors has been more of a driver than it should have been. And resulted in too many risks being taken. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 15 minutes ago, dennyc said: I understand Callachan had not played for 18 months due to serious injury. And here we are, he is injured yet again. The first time he takes to the field in earnest. Are we surprised he is injured again? Is it just bad luck? Halliday was injured for much of his later time at Hearts and at Rangers. He did little to provide encouragement in his loan spell with us and looked far from fit. Well off the pace. He needed game time we were told. After a full pre season and regular game time how do you think he is performing and does he look fit to you? Is he just unlucky? Nicholson at least provided some hope during his loan/trial period despite injuries which had sidelined him for a lengthy spell. So I can understand his signing. More bad luck though? My point is about minimising risk when signing players and thus giving a greater chance of success. Giving that bad luck less of a chance. Following Spittal's departure and knowing that Slattery would be absent for several months I think it was reckless to bring in three midfielders each with serious injury concerns and with little or no game time amongst them. Risk was not minimised. And so we are now relying on a 17 year old to save the day. And will likely have to use a good deal of the Bair money to shore things up. Maybe SK has just been unlucky as you suggest (Paton injury being an example). But he has previous with regard to injury punts not working out. I hoped he was learning from previous experiences but the signs so far are hardly encouraging. Setting the midfield aside, there are other new recruits with injury concerns. More bad luck? Genuine question. Can you name me any player with a poor injury record immediately prior to joining us that Kettlewell has turned into a success? I am seriously struggling to come up with one. But several failures spring to mind. Basically, I think SK and Motherwell need to have a close look at the signing strategy. Perhaps the desire to get deals done early doors has been more of a driver than it should have been. And resulted in too many risks being taken. I'll respond to you another time if that's ok. I'm not dismissing your views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 Just now, wellgirl said: I'll respond to you another time if that's ok. I'm not dismissing your views. Fair enough. No worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yabba's Turd Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 4 hours ago, Yodo said: Where is his replacement then You're not quite grasping this, are you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodo Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 11 minutes ago, Yabba's Turd said: You're not quite grasping this, are you? Bit like yersel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron_Mcd Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 Signing Callachan was always a weird one to me, he was just off of the back of a long term injury and (according to County fans on P&B) was rotten when he was fit.* Halliday seemed like a clever signing when we picked him up in January and was one I was pretty pleased with at the time, he was (IMO) really underwhelming in his loan spell to the point I was hoping that we cancelled his PCA. TBF to Kettlewell and the club it's impossible for us to know the contract situation there and if we could actually do that. Nicholson in my eyes is just a case of bad luck, as far as I can remember everyone bar Steelboy was pleased with the signing when we got him back permanently. I think we've signed our fair share of perma-crocks (Jon Obika, Pape Souare etc...) but I do also think that in some cases (like the aforementioned Callum Slattery) we have just been really unlucky a lot of the time. *Callachan's name being spelt Callachan instead of Callaghan is very, very annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 6 minutes ago, Cameron_Mcd said: Signing Callachan was always a weird one to me, he was just off of the back of a long term injury and (according to County fans on P&B) was rotten when he was fit.* Halliday seemed like a clever signing when we picked him up in January and was one I was pretty pleased with at the time, he was (IMO) really underwhelming in his loan spell to the point I was hoping that we cancelled his PCA. TBF to Kettlewell and the club it's impossible for us to know the contract situation there and if we could actually do that. Nicholson in my eyes is just a case of bad luck, as far as I can remember everyone bar Steelboy was pleased with the signing when we got him back permanently. I think we've signed our fair share of perma-crocks (Jon Obika, Pape Souare etc...) but I do also think that in some cases (like the aforementioned Callum Slattery) we have just been really unlucky a lot of the time. *Callachan's name being spelt Callachan instead of Callaghan is very, very annoying. I completely agree. And you know when someone has an injury such as a leg break and ACL tear I don't think that's someone being injury prone. It's a freak injury. I've seen people online slag off the manager for injuries that happened on the pitch. Also agree that Nicolson is bad luck. He played 16 games since he was signed. I hope he recovers and kicks on. His name is Callachan. Other folk have been spelling it wrongly 😏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mootherwell86 Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 Career mercenary, chicken coop enthusiast and one time Fir Park hero is incoming apparently. 😬 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 5 minutes ago, Mootherwell86 said: Career mercenary, chicken coop enthusiast and one time Fir Park hero is incoming apparently. 😬 Tony Watt? According to someone on pie and bov who said they had "sources" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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