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2024/25 Ins & Outs Discussion


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2 minutes ago, wellfan said:

So what you're saying is that Daws and Caldwell are also fucking idiots for watching the likes of Mugabi and Butcher this season and thinking that their performances merited a new contract. 

I'm saying that I find it staggering that anyone at the Club (or any fan) could justify every one of our defenders of last season being retained for the season ahead. With the possibility of the exact same defence next season as last. And I can only assume SK was on board with that possibility.

I doubt whether any of them are fucking idiots though, which makes it even more baffling.

But, hey, I'm only a fan that witnessed those defenders regularly under perform and a fan that believed change was essential. Particularly at Centre Back.

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3 hours ago, texanwellfan said:

I’m ok with SK signing most of the defence again as he knows them well, but of course, he needs to sign upgraded new players that will be first choice. We need a squad of players not just a first team. Going to be hard enough finding 1 upgraded replacement for each position. So at least keeping current players on board he has a group of players that he knows exactly how they can perform and also they know exactly how SK works

Very good point. 

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4 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

Id rather see him go 

When he plays it simple with no nonsense hes well worth keeping . But he does make mistakes, if he didn’t he wouldn’t be playing for us now would he. Worth a new contract.

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1 hour ago, wellfan said:

So what you're saying is that Daws and Caldwell are also fucking idiots for watching the likes of Mugabi and Butcher this season and thinking that their performances merited a new contract. 

I wouldn't quite word it like that, but basically, yes. 

This is a collective endeavour, so it shouldn't all be pinned on the manager. There are a lot of moving parts, and they should be held accountable as well.

37 minutes ago, dennyc said:

I'm saying that I find it staggering that anyone at the Club (or any fan) could justify every one of our defenders of last season being retained for the season ahead. With the possibility of the exact same defence next season as last. And I can only assume SK was on board with that possibility.

I doubt whether any of them are fucking idiots though, which makes it even more baffling.

But, hey, I'm only a fan that witnessed those defenders regularly under perform and a fan that believed change was essential. Particularly at Centre Back.

I agree 100%. I think the time has long since past that actual wholesale changes are needed. Now, I won't pretend to know what the current market is like for players within our budget, but I'd very much like to see the club switch things up and move in a different direction, especially in defence.

The idea of us having maybe one or two loanees come in and start the season with Oxborough instead of Kelly in goals as the only real difference from last season doesn't really inspire me with confidence.

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3 hours ago, David said:

My point is that this isn't solely Kettlewell's decision. While he'll have a say, the decision will be a collaborative one, taking into account the opinions of everyone I mentioned. Various factors will be considered, such as the availability of alternatives for that position this summer, the budget, and the costs associated with bringing in someone new compared to keeping someone familiar with the club who the manager believes can improve with different personnel around him.

Therefore, calling Kettlewell "a fucking idiot" is unfair, as the final decision won't rest on him alone.

Not defending the original post at all. I dont think for a minute that SK is an idiot. However, your post seemed to suggest that he could be absolved from any blame in re-signing players because others would have input.

If we are offering Mugabi a new contract its because SK has said to the CEO he would like to keep him. What that offer is, is obviously a different matter. But we all know the defence needs a re-fit and you cant do that by keeping the majority of players that performed so poorly in it. 

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10 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Not defending the original post at all. I dont think for a minute that SK is an idiot. However, your post seemed to suggest that he could be absolved from any blame in re-signing players because others would have input.

If we are offering Mugabi a new contract its because SK has said to the CEO he would like to keep him. What that offer is, is obviously a different matter. But we all know the defence needs a re-fit and you cant do that by keeping the majority of players that performed so poorly in it. 

See my post above. I certainly do not absolve Kettlewell of any responsibility. I'm simply saying that there is more to it than him just deciding he wants to keep Mugabi, for example.

It likely involves a three-way discussion between the CEO, Head of Recruitment, and the manager, considering that retaining someone like Mugabi might be a better option than losing him and then struggling to find a suitable replacement.

We can assume that Kettlewell will be informed about the current state of the market for the positions he wants to fill by Dawes, as that's his responsibility.

So, it's probably a joint decision with many different factors involved.

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9 minutes ago, David said:

See my post above. I certainly do not absolve Kettlewell of any responsibility. I'm simply saying that there is more to it than him just deciding he wants to keep Mugabi, for example.

It likely involves a three-way discussion between the CEO, Head of Recruitment, and the manager, considering that retaining someone like Mugabi might be a better option than losing him and then struggling to find a suitable replacement.

We can assume that Kettlewell will be informed about the current state of the market for the positions he wants to fill by Dawes, as that's his responsibility.

So, it's probably a joint decision with many different factors involved.

Of course there will be joint discussions between the three.  However, SK will be very well aware indeed and extremely well informed about the current state of the market including wage levels. He will have discussed with Nick Daws the level and kind of players he's looking for. The CEO will will also have an input I'd guess about wage levels.  In short, Nick Daws will have a very good idea about the type of player to scout and the their likely wage demands.

All that said it will be SK's decision and his alone as to whether to offer an existing player a contract or or not. He'll give the CEO a steer about wage levels to offer. It wouldn't be the first time that a manager of ours has said to a CEO (or equivalent) "Don't offer him above £x as he's not worth it." Also not the first time a  CEO or equvalent has said to the manager "We'll push the boat out to keep him" and the manager replied "No we won't I don't want to keep him". 

What it boils down to is can SK live with a player's weaknesses or does he think we can do better by bringing someone else in. 

These matters will be down to SK and him alone, albeit with input from the others.  

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2 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

In short, Nick Daws will have a very good idea about the type of player to scout and the their likely wage demands.

That's my point though, it will come down to what type of player Dawes has managed to find. A club operating at our level in the market will be fairly limited when it comes to the quality we'd hope to get, as you best believe that any players on our radar will also be on the radar of other clubs in our league. 

Would I be surprised if Kettlewell has spoken to Dawes over the past few weeks and they have both come to the conclusion that there isn't much better out there than what we have already? I would not. 

Kettlewell and his team aren't daft. I don't think they'd be offering new deals to the likes of O'Donnell, Mugabi, McGinn and Butcher if they had earmarked targets who are better than them.

The question then is, do we release the likes of Mugabi and watch him join a Dundee United, St Mirren or whatever, and run the risk that we're left at the final kick trying to find someone better?

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A few points have been made on here following the lists released by the club.

• Like most, I'm kind of surprised that Mugabi has been offered a contract. Not that I think he's any worse than Blaney or Casey but given how little he played the last couple of months, the game against St Johnstone felt like a sentimental chance to say cheerio. If he was the first centre half on our bench, I wouldn't be upset. We've had worse defenders...

• I think it was Dave who seemed surprised that we offered Oxborough a contract when he wasn't deemed good enough when Kelly lost form. We have to remember that Kelly was club captain and clubs very rarely drop goalkeepers...

• Before getting upset at our offering Slattery (and Mugabi and O'Donnell for that matter), maybe consider that we don't know what they've been offered  Slattery offered pay as you play? O'Donnell and Mugabi offered terms of a bench player rather than a first pick. I reckon if we'd offered these players what they were after then they'd be on the same list as Oxborough and McGinn...

 

I've been pretty uninspired by the names we've been linked with but will wait and see what the squad looks like as the league cup and then the league starts...

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I'm 50/50 on Mugabi as I like him because he does have the ability but he also switches off from time to time. Kelly was the one at fault for the second goal v St. J. in my opinion and it really comes down to centre halves not having a keeper that they can trust to be dominant in the six yard box and even as far out as twelve yards. If the Ox or whoever our number one will be has a bigger physical presence and better control of balls into the box then that will take pressure off the defenders. Less pressure, less mistakes. (hopefully)

I think it makes sense to retain So'D, especially if on slightly reduced terms as a squad player or same wage but doing some coaching as well. He seems to be really popular with the rest of the squad so he's a good person to have around to help younger and newer players integrate.

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I;m a day late I don't know if me eyes are decieving me we offered Bevis Mugabi a new deal? Seems like a lovely guy but hes a poor Cb and definetley not someone we need going forward

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10 hours ago, David said:

That's my point though, it will come down to what type of player Dawes has managed to find. A club operating at our level in the market will be fairly limited when it comes to the quality we'd hope to get, as you best believe that any players on our radar will also be on the radar of other clubs in our league. 

Would I be surprised if Kettlewell has spoken to Dawes over the past few weeks and they have both come to the conclusion that there isn't much better out there than what we have already? I would not. 

Kettlewell and his team aren't daft. I don't think they'd be offering new deals to the likes of O'Donnell, Mugabi, McGinn and Butcher if they had earmarked targets who are better than them.

The question then is, do we release the likes of Mugabi and watch him join a Dundee United, St Mirren or whatever, and run the risk that we're left at the final kick trying to find someone better?

I quite get that we're fishing in the same pond as a number of other Premiership clubs. You can almost bet that anyone we chase will be well known to the likes of Don Cowie, Craig Levein, Stephen Robinson etc.

At the outset, I except Callum Slattery's offer, due to his unfortunate circumstances. He will be a special case.  

SK accepts the premise that the defence was poor last season. He has said so in public. As I said before, presumably they were coached to eradicate the collective and individual weaknesses. That did not work. You're then looking at personnel changes. If certain players were failing last season then there's a very high probability that they'll fail next season.  Why not bring in "suitable" new faces who would possibly fail as opposed to keeping those who most probably would fail? As the adage goes, if something doesn't work why repeat it? Yes, there are risks but we can't just go again with the same failing crew.

Can all of last season's defensive failings all be attributed to a poor goalie and poor defensive midfield? Given the amount and nature of the goals we lost, I don't think so. 

Wing back will be an interesting position. We've lost Gent, Devine and never really had Montgomery. IF SOD re-signs, he'll be a year older and slower. Interesting that Ewan Wilson has been given a year long deal.  Will he be loaned out again or given his chance? If we rely on loans, then we're looking at bringing them in well after the season has commenced.

A busy summer ahead and we're off to an intriguing start.

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Except for those with an existing contract, loans ending, and Kelly, the Club has offered that entire failed defence new deals. I wouldn't call that intriguing, surprising, uninspiring, etc., I’d call that idiotic.

Other than that, I’m pleased to see Slattery offered a deal and a little bemused by the Oxborough deal. 

The less said about the wages the Club will be wasting on Halliday, the better.

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8 hours ago, MelvinBragg said:

A few points have been made on here following the lists released by the club.

• Like most, I'm kind of surprised that Mugabi has been offered a contract. Not that I think he's any worse than Blaney or Casey but given how little he played the last couple of months, the game against St Johnstone felt like a sentimental chance to say cheerio. If he was the first centre half on our bench, I wouldn't be upset. We've had worse defenders...

• I think it was Dave who seemed surprised that we offered Oxborough a contract when he wasn't deemed good enough when Kelly lost form. We have to remember that Kelly was club captain and clubs very rarely drop goalkeepers...

• Before getting upset at our offering Slattery (and Mugabi and O'Donnell for that matter), maybe consider that we don't know what they've been offered  Slattery offered pay as you play? O'Donnell and Mugabi offered terms of a bench player rather than a first pick. I reckon if we'd offered these players what they were after then they'd be on the same list as Oxborough and McGinn...

 

I've been pretty uninspired by the names we've been linked with but will wait and see what the squad looks like as the league cup and then the league starts...

I'd be surprised if Slattery has been offered pay as you play. There's zero security in that and I think he's a decent footballer who is worth a new contract.

Someone said earlier that both McGinn and O'Donnell were offered a year and wanted two.  Again I've no issue with O'Donnell being re signed whether that's coming off the bench or not. I agree re Ox and Kelly not being dropped. 

I do think there will be additions as well. Long way to go till the season starts. Just saw a short interview with Butcher after the St Johnstone game which the club have put on twitter and he said he's looking forward to see how Motherwell do next year - looks like he was wanting a move away. 

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56 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I quite get that we're fishing in the same pond as a number of other Premiership clubs. You can almost bet that anyone we chase will be well known to the likes of Don Cowie, Craig Levein, Stephen Robinson etc.

At the outset, I except Callum Slattery's offer, due to his unfortunate circumstances. He will be a special case.  

SK accepts the premise that the defence was poor last season. He has said so in public. As I said before, presumably they were coached to eradicate the collective and individual weaknesses. That did not work. You're then looking at personnel changes. If certain players were failing last season then there's a very high probability that they'll fail next season.  Why not bring in "suitable" new faces who would possibly fail as opposed to keeping those who most probably would fail? As the adage goes, if something doesn't work why repeat it? Yes, there are risks but we can't just go again with the same failing crew.

Can all of last season's defensive failings all be attributed to a poor goalie and poor defensive midfield? Given the amount and nature of the goals we lost, I don't think so. 

Wing back will be an interesting position. We've lost Gent, Devine and never really had Montgomery. IF SOD re-signs, he'll be a year older and slower. Interesting that Ewan Wilson has been given a year long deal.  Will he be loaned out again or given his chance? If we rely on loans, then we're looking at bringing them in well after the season has commenced.

A busy summer ahead and we're off to an intriguing start.

To be fair to Motherwell at this point in time few other spl teams have made a lot of signings. Id expect to see more activity obviously as the summer goes on. Loans or not.

Plus at the moment we don't know if SOD or Mugabi will accept the new terms on offer. Was only rumour that Dundee utd were after Mugabi but if they offer him better wages then you'd expect him to take them. 

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16 hours ago, steelman1991 said:

Knew I should have delayed my season ticket renewal for another day - Mugabi offered a new deal 🤬.

😁 Got mine yesterday just before the announcement.... to be fair their process for the new digital option was first class, absolutely seamless, now in my google wallet.

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11 hours ago, David said:

See my post above. I certainly do not absolve Kettlewell of any responsibility. I'm simply saying that there is more to it than him just deciding he wants to keep Mugabi, for example.

It likely involves a three-way discussion between the CEO, Head of Recruitment, and the manager, considering that retaining someone like Mugabi might be a better option than losing him and then struggling to find a suitable replacement.

We can assume that Kettlewell will be informed about the current state of the market for the positions he wants to fill by Dawes, as that's his responsibility.

So, it's probably a joint decision with many different factors involved.

and the managers say should be final in any club , if SK didnt want him hed be on his way.

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10 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Of course there will be joint discussions between the three.  However, SK will be very well aware indeed and extremely well informed about the current state of the market including wage levels. He will have discussed with Nick Daws the level and kind of players he's looking for. The CEO will will also have an input I'd guess about wage levels.  In short, Nick Daws will have a very good idea about the type of player to scout and the their likely wage demands.

All that said it will be SK's decision and his alone as to whether to offer an existing player a contract or or not. He'll give the CEO a steer about wage levels to offer. It wouldn't be the first time that a manager of ours has said to a CEO (or equivalent) "Don't offer him above £x as he's not worth it." Also not the first time a  CEO or equvalent has said to the manager "We'll push the boat out to keep him" and the manager replied "No we won't I don't want to keep him". 

What it boils down to is can SK live with a player's weaknesses or does he think we can do better by bringing someone else in. 

These matters will be down to SK and him alone, albeit with input from the others.  

100% correct.

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14 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

To be fair to Motherwell at this point in time few other spl teams have made a lot of signings. Id expect to see more activity obviously as the summer goes on. Loans or not.

Plus at the moment we don't know if SOD or Mugabi will accept the new terms on offer. Was only rumour that Dundee utd were after Mugabi but if they offer him better wages then you'd expect him to take them. 

Agreed. We really don't know much about new signings yet. That's another issue. It's very early days; contracts end next week; and the transfer window doesn't open for weeks. 

However the retained list is the strangest one I can recall. There will be stories behind it though, to which we're not party. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, stv said:

When he plays it simple with no nonsense hes well worth keeping . But he does make mistakes, if he didn’t he wouldn’t be playing for us now would he. Worth a new contract.

yeah but even at our level their are a frequency of mistakes and poor judgement that just arent acceptable.

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2 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

yeah but even at our level their are a frequency of mistakes and poor judgement that just arent acceptable.

When he's on his game he is good. But when he's not he's a bombscare. Anyone I've spoken to away from here over the last 24 hours -Mugabi is the name people are surprised over. However maybe Kettlewell didn't want to single him out given the rest of the defence were also poor for a lot of the season - not that I think that justifies a new contract offer. 

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3 minutes ago, TheoBair14 said:

Is Oxbourgh number 1 is the question? 
 

Worth giving him a chance and you just never know 

We will need another keeper in anyways 

It's intriguing and we just don't know. If rumours are to be believed, we're looking to acquire another senior keeper. We've released young John Bogan. Where does that leave Matty Connelly? Another season out on loan? 

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