bobbybingo Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 2 minutes ago, MJC said: Well firstly that was six and a half years ago now, and we haven’t managed to record a win against either of the OF since then. And secondly, having Robinson as manager who had only just recently taken over was a factor IMO, because he was at that time an ‘outsider’ to us, Scottish football and our place in the game. Pretty much the same as Baraclough in the 2015 playoffs. Of course both of those results count, but they were a long time ago and few and far between and, crucially imo, we had managers who hadn’t been with us long and weren’t with us long enough to buy into the “we’re punching above our weight” mentality by the time those games came around. Put it this way, Mark McGhee or Stuart McCall would not have overseen wins in those games. Eh, Robinson wasn't an outsider to us or Scottish football in 2017. And are you seriously suggesting a football guy from Northern Ireland didn't realise Motherwell aren't supposed to beat Rangers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 Just now, bobbybingo said: Eh, Robinson wasn't an outsider to us or Scottish football in 2017. And are you seriously suggesting a football guy from Northern Ireland didn't realise Motherwell aren't supposed to beat Rangers? No, but I seriously doubt that he would have grasped the “we’re only a wee club, games against Rangers don’t matter because we can’t compete with their budget” outlook by that point in his tenure with us. Stuart McCall as I said totally bought into that mentality when he was here, as demonstrated perfectly when we went to Ibrox as top flight league leaders and they were struggling to beat Peterhead in the lowest league. All you got from him was subservient nonsense about how they had a twelfth man with their support and how we weren’t favourites. And we duly bent over and lost 2-0 without laying a glove on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 2 minutes ago, MJC said: No, but I seriously doubt that he would have grasped the “we’re only a wee club, games against Rangers don’t matter because we can’t compete with their budget” outlook by that point in his tenure with us. I think it's pretty certain that a Rangers man would understand the respective histories (and therefore, expectations) of both teams perfectly well, and, having been assistant manager to Baraclough, there's no way he wouldn't have grasped the gulf between them in every respect. Who exactly is it you're saying has informed numerous managers and hundreds of players results against the Old Firm don't really matter to Motherwell? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star sail Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 4 hours ago, MJC said: No, but I seriously doubt that he would have grasped the “we’re only a wee club, games against Rangers don’t matter because we can’t compete with their budget” outlook by that point in his tenure with us. Stuart McCall as I said totally bought into that mentality when he was here, as demonstrated perfectly when we went to Ibrox as top flight league leaders and they were struggling to beat Peterhead in the lowest league. All you got from him was subservient nonsense about how they had a twelfth man with their support and how we weren’t favourites. And we duly bent over and lost 2-0 without laying a glove on them. MJC, I have a huge amount of sympathy with what you have to say here and the game you mention was a perfect example of a Motherwell manager talking us into defeat before a ball was kicked. Our record against the OF is terrible and it is slightly depressing when you see our own fans just accept it and defend it as being just fine. What I would say is that when you see how poor our record has been over the last couple of decades, it makes it all the more remarkable that both Robinson and Baraclough were able to change the narrative, if only temporarily. Our league is heavily weighted in terms of the OF, there is no doubt about that and when you see the meltdown that occurs when another Premiership team goes to Celtic Park or Ibrox and dares to even draw ( as per Killie on Saturday) then you can tell that beating the OF is never considered part of the script for any team . I think I read at the weekend that Ross County have never beaten Rangers. If that is true, it shows just how heavily the cards are stacked. You just never know about this weekend. I think we deserve just one headline, marquee result this season. This just might be it. We have to dream. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 If you dont dare to dream then you are always going to be stuck in a self fulfilling prophecy. I agree with MJC that the club, manager and players need to change their mentality if they are to reverse the trend of our results against the big two. You wont ever win a game if you dont think you can. However, that also applies to us as fans..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 10 hours ago, bobbybingo said: I think it's pretty certain that a Rangers man would understand the respective histories (and therefore, expectations) of both teams perfectly well, and, having been assistant manager to Baraclough, there's no way he wouldn't have grasped the gulf between them in every respect. Who exactly is it you're saying has informed numerous managers and hundreds of players results against the Old Firm don't really matter to Motherwell? I don’t think it’s one specific person or group of people informing numerous managers of that, it’s just something that has become rife throughout the club during the past twenty odd years. Terry Butcher was the one who started the “we’re punching above our weight” and Alan Burrows parroted that on here in this forums early years and the latter obviously went on to have a huge influence within the club, but I don’t think it’s simply down to him. It’s no coincidence that that mentality has grown arms and legs with the rise of social media which allowed the support as a whole to start buying into it when they hear a lot of the sound bites coming out of the club about how skint we are, how we’re punching above our weight etc. As a fan owned club it’s to be expected that that mindset then becomes rife within the boardroom as well as the stands. That numerous managers and players buy into it is to be expected. In any business if employees are told over and over again by their superiors that exceeding expectations doesn’t matter and that as long as they reach their bare minimum target every year then that isn’t going to motivate or push them to go that extra mile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, MJC said: I don’t think it’s one specific person or group of people informing numerous managers of that, it’s just something that has become rife throughout the club during the past twenty odd years. Terry Butcher was the one who started the “we’re punching above our weight” and Alan Burrows parroted that on here in this forums early years and the latter obviously went on to have a huge influence within the club, but I don’t think it’s simply down to him. It’s no coincidence that that mentality has grown arms and legs with the rise of social media which allowed the support as a whole to start buying into it when they hear a lot of the sound bites coming out of the club about how skint we are, how we’re punching above our weight etc. As a fan owned club it’s to be expected that that mindset then becomes rife within the boardroom as well as the stands. That numerous managers and players buy into it is to be expected. In any business if employees are told over and over again by their superiors that exceeding expectations doesn’t matter and that as long as they reach their bare minimum target every year then that isn’t going to motivate or push them to go that extra mile. I realise how unlikely it is we'll beat either of them these days, but that will never stop me hoping/believing the next time will be the time it happens, no matter how often I'm let down. So, as naive as it may appear, I'm looking for positives and reasons as to why we'll win on Sunday. Finding reasons we'll get scudded is far easier. I can't accept that the club, from boardroom to pitch, have gone into these games accepting defeat for the best part of 30 years. I think every SPL club has suffered a gradual decline in the quality of player they can attract over that time, but ours is more marked than the Old Firm. Oh, for the days of wine and Hovis, when we were able to count on at least one win a season against the uglies, and almost invariably had one or two of their exs in our team when it came. Decent - or much more than that - players who had been part of league or cup winning sides, not the never made it scraps we just might pick up now. Having a Russell, Cooper or Coyne in the dressing room had to change the mentality, never mind what they brought on the park. McManus, McDonald and Pearson might've been a few steps down, but they clearly weren't wearing nappies or waving white flags when they ran out at Ibrox that night. Our guys have never played or won anything at that level, so it has to have an affect on your midset, if not going in, then when the going gets tough. Mibbe, just mibbe, the pressure of having to chase Rangers for the first time won't elicit the positive reaction from some Celtic players their fans will demand. I still enjoy clutching at straws. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 Whilst footballing ability and money inevitably influence results to a huge degree, mentaility does play a part. For us to beat, or even draw with the gruesome twosome we need them to have injury absentees on the day, be below par, have bad luck, and a fair referee. If that isn't enough, we need to be on the top of our game. Its not just players' ability that counts but their character and thats where we fall short just now, and have done so for some years. In short, we've shown them far too much repsect and a lack on field leadership. We need the Willlie McVie, Stewart McLaren and Peter Millar mentaility. Players who'd die in a ditch to prevent them from getting anywhere near our penalty box, let alone our keeper. Guys who would class it as a disaster if a green or blue shirt managed to fire off a shot that hit Row Z. Football isn't just about getting in the right type of player or skillful individuals, its about having a winner's character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 26 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said: Whilst footballing ability and money inevitably influence results to a huge degree, mentaility does play a part. For us to beat, or even draw with the gruesome twosome we need them to have injury absentees on the day, be below par, have bad luck, and a fair referee. If that isn't enough, we need to be on the top of our game. Its not just players' ability that counts but their character and thats where we fall short just now, and have done so for some years. In short, we've shown them far too much repsect and a lack on field leadership. We need the Willlie McVie, Stewart McLaren and Peter Millar mentaility. Players who'd die in a ditch to prevent them from getting anywhere near our penalty box, let alone our keeper. Guys who would class it as a disaster if a green or blue shirt managed to fire off a shot that hit Row Z. Football isn't just about getting in the right type of player or skillful individuals, its about having a winner's character. In a parallel universe it would be nice to have McVie, McLaren and Millar available on Sunday. Unfortunately, two are serving life bans and the other one's in the clink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mio Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 29 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: In a parallel universe it would be nice to have McVie, McLaren and Millar available on Sunday. Unfortunately, two are serving life bans and the other one's in the clink. What I’d give to watch just one game with those 3 in the modern game and the “first foul is free” rule back in operation. have the 3 of them batter McGregor up in the air would be a joy to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 17 minutes ago, mio said: What I’d give to watch just one game with those 3 in the modern game and the “first foul is free” rule back in operation. have the 3 of them batter McGregor up in the air would be a joy to see. Or just stand McGregor next to Gregor. That would be enough to scare anyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 11 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said: If you dont dare to dream then you are always going to be stuck in a self fulfilling prophecy. I agree with MJC that the club, manager and players need to change their mentality if they are to reverse the trend of our results against the big two. You wont ever win a game if you dont think you can. However, that also applies to us as fans..... You think the players go out there under the belief that they can't win? I don't agree. Most professionals who make it to a level of the sport where they're actually being paid quite well and make a full-time living from the game are rarely the type to be mentally weak. You don't get to even this level of the game without believing you are one of the best out there. Why do you think we see our players consistently leaving for bigger clubs despite the general belief being that they won't get any game time? Sure, the money helps, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any professional-level footballer who doesn't believe he can reach the heights if only he was given a chance. Belief that they can get a result isn't the issue. The issue is that we don't have the actual quality in our team to do it for the most part. Mentality and belief can only go so far. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirParkCornerExile Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 13 hours ago, star sail said: MJC, I have a huge amount of sympathy with what you have to say here and the game you mention was a perfect example of a Motherwell manager talking us into defeat before a ball was kicked. Our record against the OF is terrible and it is slightly depressing when you see our own fans just accept it and defend it as being just fine. What I would say is that when you see how poor our record has been over the last couple of decades, it makes it all the more remarkable that both Robinson and Baraclough were able to change the narrative, if only temporarily. Our league is heavily weighted in terms of the OF, there is no doubt about that and when you see the meltdown that occurs when another Premiership team goes to Celtic Park or Ibrox and dares to even draw ( as per Killie on Saturday) then you can tell that beating the OF is never considered part of the script for any team . I think I read at the weekend that Ross County have never beaten Rangers. If that is true, it shows just how heavily the cards are stacked. You just never know about this weekend. I think we deserve just one headline, marquee result this season. This just might be it. We have to dream. Our record against Rangers is worse than Ross County's. We've played Rangers a total of 278 times , RC have played them a total of 21 times. We haven't taken 3 points off Rangers in the league in 21 years, that's 56 games, that's nearly treble the amount of chances RC have had in their winless 21 games against Rangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 29 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said: Our record against Rangers is worse than Ross County's. We've played Rangers a total of 278 times , RC have played them a total of 21 times. We haven't taken 3 points off Rangers in the league in 21 years, that's 56 games, that's nearly treble the amount of chances RC have had in their winless 21 games against Rangers. I'm not sure anyone can have a worse winless record than 'never won'. If you want to count every league game they've ever played against Rangers, surely the fair comparison would be every league game we've ever played against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirParkCornerExile Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 3 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: I'm not sure anyone can have a worse winless record than 'never won'. If you want to count every league game they've ever played against Rangers, surely the fair comparison would be every league game we've ever played against them. I think it's fair, however take your point , Ross County haven't taken 3 points off Rangers in 21 attempts we havent taken 3 points off them in 56 attempts, ours is worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 I can't understand the obsession some people have about beating either of the ugly sisters, especially the blue half, we've beaten both of them in games that matter over the years , the 91 semi final, 2015 playoff final, 2017/18 league Cup, yes a league win is nice but its not as simple as that. The uncomfortable truth whether people like it or not is that they are both much better teams than us (Rangers playoff final team excepted) so we don't have a god given right to expect to beat them every time we play them. All these stats about other teams having better records than ours etc are irrelevant it's nothing to do with mental attitude either, every Motherwell player goes into every game hoping to win, but in the real world you get beaten by better teams, who cares if its 20 odd years since our last league win against the blue uglies I'd rather see us winning against the other 9 teams, to earn a Euro spot, a decent cup run, stay in the premiership etc, people need to chill out a bit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well_said Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 4 hours ago, Kmcalpin said: Whilst footballing ability and money inevitably influence results to a huge degree, mentaility does play a part. For us to beat, or even draw with the gruesome twosome we need them to have injury absentees on the day, be below par, have bad luck, and a fair referee. If that isn't enough, we need to be on the top of our game. Its not just players' ability that counts but their character and thats where we fall short just now, and have done so for some years. In short, we've shown them far too much repsect and a lack on field leadership. We need the Willlie McVie, Stewart McLaren and Peter Millar mentaility. Players who'd die in a ditch to prevent them from getting anywhere near our penalty box, let alone our keeper. Guys who would class it as a disaster if a green or blue shirt managed to fire off a shot that hit Row Z. Football isn't just about getting in the right type of player or skillful individuals, its about having a winner's character. Do you consider Collum a fair referee or just a bad one who seems to favour his favourite team more often than not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretzel Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 3 minutes ago, well_said said: Do you consider Collum a fair referee or just a bad one who seems to favour his favourite team more often than not. Totally incompetent ref tbh, before VAR when all questionable reds went to the review panel it always seemed to be his that we got over turned. It's a shame he is the ref for this game as it'll be his show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelmaninOZ Posted February 20 Author Report Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, Spiderpig said: I can't understand the obsession some people have about beating either of the ugly sisters, especially the blue half, we've beaten both of them in games that matter over the years , the 91 semi final, 2015 playoff final, 2017/18 league Cup, yes a league win is nice but its not as simple as that. The uncomfortable truth whether people like it or not is that they are both much better teams than us (Rangers playoff final team excepted) so we don't have a god given right to expect to beat them every time we play them. All these stats about other teams having better records than ours etc are irrelevant it's nothing to do with mental attitude either, every Motherwell player goes into every game hoping to win, but in the real world you get beaten by better teams, who cares if its 20 odd years since our last league win against the blue uglies I'd rather see us winning against the other 9 teams, to earn a Euro spot, a decent cup run, stay in the premiership etc, people need to chill out a bit. I have been saying that for a long time. Thanks for posting this mate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelmaninOZ Posted February 20 Author Report Share Posted February 20 14 minutes ago, pretzel said: Totally incompetent ref tbh, before VAR when all questionable reds went to the review panel it always seemed to be his that we got over turned. It's a shame he is the ref for this game as it'll be his show. Brings to mind that old chant “who’s your faither referee? You haven’t got one your a bastard referee!” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well_said Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 A favourite song in the choir back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 My attitude is they're just another team in the same league as us. It doesnt bother me any more having a poor record against either of the OF than it does any other team. I really don't care how long it's been since we beat them, I only care about the next game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 The SPL and now SPFL were set up mostly to benefit the OF. SPL was created with 10 teams to guarantee 4 OF derbies a season. The splitting of gate money was changed to "home team keeps everything" to ensure the OF had proportionately more income. The top-heavy weighting of the 1st and 2nd prize money was created to ensure the OF received the most cash the majority of the seasons. And let's not forget how the authorities wanted to keep Sevco in the top league after liquidation. Even after the fan protests they went against their own rule book and kept them in the league despite the precedent set by the treatment of teams like Gretna. So it's not completely unreasonable for any team to mention the disparity in resources when we come up against them. We are literally playing against a stacked deck every time. But it's football, and in single games, points can be won against them - and winning them is sweeter thanks to the same disparity. The fact that both sides are supported by many small minded bigots just adds the pleasure when we do win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 4 hours ago, David said: You think the players go out there under the belief that they can't win? I don't agree. Most professionals who make it to a level of the sport where they're actually being paid quite well and make a full-time living from the game are rarely the type to be mentally weak. You don't get to even this level of the game without believing you are one of the best out there. Why do you think we see our players consistently leaving for bigger clubs despite the general belief being that they won't get any game time? Sure, the money helps, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any professional-level footballer who doesn't believe he can reach the heights if only he was given a chance. Belief that they can get a result isn't the issue. The issue is that we don't have the actual quality in our team to do it for the most part. Mentality and belief can only go so far. You missed my point entirely. Maybe I should have posted "If I were to agree with MJC".......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 4 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said: You missed my point entirely. Maybe I should have posted "If I were to agree with MJC".......... Instead of "I agree with MJC..."? Yeah, probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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