New Investment Options

[Spiderpig]

I'm not a WS member so I've no say in the consultation but it seems blatantly obvious to me that if the WS members don't agree with reducing their shareholding then there will be no investment. 

Potential investors don't want to be dealing with shareholders that continually need to poll their membership at every turn to ask their opinion. So for me unless the WS shareholding is below 50% then I can't see it happening in a form beneficial to the club long term.

[FirParkCornerExile]

17 minutes ago, cambo97 said:

I'm sure the Third Lanark, Clydebank and Gretna fans would disagree.

you are right, of course clubs have died, but the number of clubs that don't actually survive in some shape or form is minimal. I'm not suggesting we act recklessly but some of the hysteria about not having a majority share holding is frankly off the scale. We operated for over 100 years not being fan owned and not being fan owned does not mean we will automatically go bust or every owning group will be out to screw us over. Like all things in life the devil is in the detail. Indeed being fan owned does not mean we will never go bust or go into administration either.

 

Im in the "lets see the facts, the checks / balances / assurances and vision" before I decide Yes or No.

[wellsince75]

The challenge is we've not been profitable.  The model hoped we'd sell players and hoped we'd be able to have cup runs to make things meet. That's not happened. 

Crowds are reducing and unlikely to ever increase, other revenues from tv etc have not been forthcoming.  Our cost is 50:50 ratio on players v's other costs. 

Thinking from the eyes of an investor, if investing funds in a football club (even if I was a Well fan) I'd want control, I wouldn't want a well meaning society to have control the majority control.

I personally don't believe we're any better off with a society owned model than we had for the previous +100 years of existence.  

[Pettywulliegrew-2]

Until we have all the information it’s all a bit pie in the sky………..let’s see what’s on offer by who/what etc etc

we are getting the usual knicker wetting when we don’t actually know all the facts

 

[santheman]

One thing is for sure, if we want to continue with the fan owned model then we as fans had better be prepared to dig very deep into our pockets and put our money where our mouths are.

I dont know what the monthly WS contributions amount to but if the deficit of circa 750k being talked about in a bad year is accurate then that's a lot of money to find especially if our cash reserves are diminished and we have no sellable assets.

Even in a "good" year there's the possiblity that we still operate with a deficit especially if we want to improve our squad to avoid floundering about the arse end of the table.

 

[wellgirl]

6 minutes ago, santheman said:

One thing is for sure, if we want to continue with the fan owned model then we as fans had better be prepared to dig very deep into our pockets and put our money where our mouths are.

I dont know what the monthly WS contributions amount to but if the deficit of circa 750k being talked about in a bad year is accurate then that's a lot of money to find especially if our cash reserves are diminished and we have no sellable assets.

Even in a "good" year there's the possiblity that we still operate with a deficit especially if we want to improve our squad to avoid floundering about the arse end of the table.

 

I've been a member for several years now. I pay the minimum contribution just now because I haven't been able to up it. Part of the issue surely is that the Society only have 3800 members. Which isn't bad given our fan base but we need more members or people like me to up their contributions. Which I will do as soon as I can. 

[Kmcalpin]

44 minutes ago, santheman said:

One thing is for sure, if we want to continue with the fan owned model then we as fans had better be prepared to dig very deep into our pockets and put our money where our mouths are.

Funnily enough, I was thinking exactly the same thing. If that's what the membersip wants then it will have to contribute more and quickly. We need to realise, that if there are no other aspects to a Society proposal other than increasing member income (and I'm confident there will be), then we're looking at roughly tripling average subscription levels i.e. from £5 monthly to £15 monthly or from £10 monthly to £30 monthly. 

[Kmcalpin]

Some good points made by Antiochas III and Handsome John on P & B. These need to be more widely shared.

The current MFC shareholder split is roughly 71% Society and 29% miscellaneous small shareholders. If a new investor were to arrive on the scene and buy newly issued shares to attain a 51% holding then the other shareholders' holding's would be diluted. In short, the Society would hold considerably less than 49% of the shares. 

[cambo97]

2 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

you are right, of course clubs have died, but the number of clubs that don't actually survive in some shape or form is minimal. I'm not suggesting we act recklessly but some of the hysteria about not having a majority share holding is frankly off the scale. We operated for over 100 years not being fan owned and not being fan owned does not mean we will automatically go bust or every owning group will be out to screw us over. Like all things in life the devil is in the detail. Indeed being fan owned does not mean we will never go bust or go into administration either.

 

Im in the "lets see the facts, the checks / balances / assurances and vision" before I decide Yes or No.

I was only making the point that some clubs have died, it's debatable whether it's 50/50 in my life time (so taking out Third Lanark) though really it's 100% both Rangers 2012 and Airdrieonians/Airdrie United / Clydebank are totally different entities.

I'm pretty much on the fence (awaiting further info) on whether being totally fan owned or not would work.

[robsterwood]

3 hours ago, cambo97 said:

I'm sure the Third Lanark, Clydebank and Gretna fans would disagree.

Thet clubs do exist in different form and leagues. Don't complain then  if we don't get investment then and can not move on to higher level. And loose players to Kilmarnock and St mirren. 

[mfc]

4 minutes ago, robsterwood said:

Thet clubs do exist in different form and leagues. Don't complain then  if we don't get investment then and can not move on to higher level. And loose players to Kilmarnock and St mirren. 

So we should take any investment going and spend like crazy but if we go bust it's ok cause we can come back as some tinpot outfit playing in public parks.

[santheman]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

Funnily enough, I was thinking exactly the same thing. If that's what the membersip wants then it will have to contribute more and quickly. We need to realise, that if there are no other aspects to a Society proposal other than increasing member income (and I'm confident there will be), then we're looking at roughly tripling average subscription levels i.e. from £5 monthly to £15 monthly or from £10 monthly to £30 monthly. 

I've posted over on P&B that I've never once been asked to increase my monthly contribution.

Replies indicate that seems to have been a conscious decision by the WS not to keep going  back to the same people with the begging bowl which is fair enough when it was a vehicle to raise funds for a rainy day.

Things have changed now and there will have to be a concerted effort by everyone concerned to plug any funding gap if fan ownership is to have any kind of medium/long term success.

I for one wouldn't take much persuading to increase my monthly contribution and take part in any fundraising schemes and I'm sure I wouldn't be alone.

 

 

[FirParkCornerExile]

43 minutes ago, cambo97 said:

I was only making the point that some clubs have died, it's debatable whether it's 50/50 in my life time (so taking out Third Lanark) though really it's 100% both Rangers 2012 and Airdrieonians/Airdrie United / Clydebank are totally different entities.

I'm pretty much on the fence (awaiting further info) on whether being totally fan owned or not would work.

And Dundee have "died" twice and are heading for a European place and they average 1200 supporters more than us. That's all I'm getting at, some people assume armageddon at every turn when change is suggested and in reality across the footballing scene very few clubs have disappeared. I wasn't meaning you specifically were suggesting an apocalyptic outcome. For fan ownership to work we need some big hitters in our support who financially are happy to put large sums in without much return and that's unlikely. Even Hearts whose fan model has worked are under pinned by individuals who put £3/£4 million in a season.

[FirParkCornerExile]

21 minutes ago, robsterwood said:

Thet clubs do exist in different form and leagues. Don't complain then  if we don't get investment then and can not move on to higher level. And loose players to Kilmarnock and St mirren. 

St Mirren ain't a good example, they are on an upward curve right now. But Robinson is working on very thin margins and St Mirren lost £1.3 million two seasons ago. St Mirren are a couple of bad seasons / managers away from facing what we are now.

[FirParkCornerExile]

16 minutes ago, mfc said:

So we should take any investment going and spend like crazy but if we go bust it's ok cause we can come back as some tinpot outfit playing in public parks.

That's the kind of knee jerk response adds nothing. Any move from a fan owned model would need to come with certain assurance , checks and balances. No Motherwell fan is going to accept any recommendation where there isn't a clear line of sight on the security of the club / ground should any investor private or group move on. That will be down to the Club, the Society and the clubs lawyers. As I said before the devil is in the detail.

Frankly at this moment in time I think many of us are getting to far ahead of ourselves. There is interest, that could come to fuck all. Look at St Johnstone their intended investors have been in discussion with the club for nearly a year.

[Great Balls of Shire]

I don't know if this is relevant but I think back to when David Murray wanted to invest in Ayr, they knocked him back and he invested in Rangers... obviously quite a few years down the line it all went wrong.... rangers enjoyed a lot of success for a good few years tho... suppose point is don't look a gift horse blah blah 

[wellfan]

31 minutes ago, santheman said:

I've posted over on P&B that I've never once been asked to increase my monthly contribution.

Replies indicate that seems to have been a conscious decision by the WS not to keep going  back to the same people with the begging bowl which is fair enough when it was a vehicle to raise funds for a rainy day.

Things have changed now and there will have to be a concerted effort by everyone concerned to plug any funding gap if fan ownership is to have any kind of medium/long term success.

I for one wouldn't take much persuading to increase my monthly contribution and take part in any fundraising schemes and I'm sure I wouldn't be alone.

 

 

I would happily double/triple my monthly direct debit to the Well Society, but they've never asked, although I think the time is now for them to do so. If we want tangible change and improvement, we and they need to act.

[FirParkCornerExile]

7 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

I don't know if this is relevant but I think back to when David Murray wanted to invest in Ayr, they knocked him back and he invested in Rangers... obviously quite a few years down the line it all went wrong.... rangers enjoyed a lot of success for a good few years tho... suppose point is don't look a gift horse blah blah 

The biggest issue is fans want guarantees and in life there are no guarantees. There is no guarantee that staying as a fan owned club we don't go tits up or become a mid ranking part time Championship Team, similarly there is no guarantee private investors will do anything other than plug short to medium term cash issues then fuck off and we are back where we are now or worse. However the clubs lawyers should ensure a certain level of safeguard should we go down the route of outside investors which may or may not materialise.

When decision time comes it will be you pays your money you take your choice.

[Great Balls of Shire]

20 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

The biggest issue is fans want guarantees and in life there are no guarantees. There is no guarantee that staying as a fan owned club we don't go tits up or become a mid ranking part time Championship Team, similarly there is no guarantee private investors will do anything other than plug short to medium term cash issues then fuck off and we are back where we are now or worse. However the clubs lawyers should ensure a certain level of safeguard should we go down the route of outside investors which may or may not materialise.

When decision time comes it will be you pays your money you take your choice.

Totally, it doesn't need to be an either or situation, nobody can forsee what's going to happen, so fans need to make their choice...I'm probably in the take some investment but with as much due diligence as possible 

[robsterwood]

1 hour ago, mfc said:

So we should take any investment going and spend like crazy but if we go bust it's ok cause we can come back as some tinpot outfit playing in public parks.

Sevco are not a tinpot outfit or Airdrie. I'm not saying go crazy. We do need assurances of course.  Just think it could raise profile of club and improve marketing and ultimately the team. Or we can plod on with similar to what we got in bottom 6 or below.  It's quite an uninspiring future. The club obviously were asking for investment and must have some strategy. Let's see what talks bring. 

[steelboy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakrie_Group

This is the conglomerate who own Brisbane Roar.

From their Wikipedia Page

Football club[edit]

Brisbane Roar (2012-present)[edit]

Bakrie Group, through PT. Pelita Jaya Cronus acquired A-League title-holders Brisbane Roar FC in 2011. Bakrie Group initially purchased 70% of the club shares, but in 2012 the Football Federation Australia (FFA) announced that the Bakrie Group has acquired 100% ownership of A-League club Brisbane Roar FC.^[35] In May 2016, Brisbane Roar faced an administrative and financial turbulences when the team ownership held investment in the club, resulting in Brisbane Roar failure to pay staff and players.^[36]

C.S. Visé (2011-2014)[edit]

C.S. Visé, a second division league Belgium football club was acquired by Bakrie Group in 2011,^[37] during Bakrie's ownership Indonesian youth players like Syamsir Alam, Manahati Lestusen and Alfin Tuasalamony were called to play for the club.^[38] C.S Vise was eventually sold by Bakrie Group in 2014.^[39]

 

https://asiatimes.com/2021/06/indonesia-tycoons-name-is-mud-over-unpaid-disaster-dues/

JAKARTA – Fifteen years since a flood of toxic mud and gas spewing out of a breached natural gas well cut road links and forced the mass evacuation of East Java villagers, firms controlled by coal tycoon Aburizal Bakrie have still to pay at least US$100 million in compensation for causing the disaster.

Although the flow from the world’s largest mud volcano has been contained by levees since late 2008 – and is now expelling only a fraction of the 120,000 cubic meters a day it was at its height – experts expect the after-effects will continue to be a problem for the next 30 years.

They warn that because the levees are only made of compacted earth, there is still a real danger of heavy monsoonal rain or increased seismic activity triggering a catastrophic collapse, unleashing an avalanche of mud across an even wider area.

“It is mind-boggling to me that the mud is still flowing,” says one source who was involved in the project at the time of the eruption. “There was a lot of evidence in the seismic of a sub-surface feature, but we thought we were drilling a reef, not a volcano.”

Mud volcanoes are not volcanoes in the accepted sense because they don’t produce magma. They are normally formed when hot water from deep beneath the surface mixes with subterranean mineral deposits and is forced upwards through a geological fault. 

Officials said last December they were still considering ways to collect on the $54.8 million loan taken out by the Bakrie-owned PT Lapindo Bratas and subsidiary PT Minarak Lapindo Jaya to recompense the government for providing the bridging finance to compensate many of the victims.

Lapindo claims to have already paid as much as 8 trillion rupiah ($560 million) as part of the emergency response and victim resettlement, but the State Audit Agency (BKS) says it now remains liable for 1.5 trillion rupiah ($105 million), covering the principal, interest payments and accumulated penalties built up over the past decade.

 

[grizzlyg]

I am a WS member but don't pay a lot monthly as can't afford big monthly investment.  Would be happy to increase now but I need assurances it would improve club.  If WS can't keep us sustainable then an investor would interest me but that's for another day

[gaz7]

The great thing that is going on just now is that everyone is thinking about new ideas on how to improve things. A great post on twitter from Grant Russell highlights loads of options which could improve us . These types of people and the new WS board are definitely giving me hope for the future. Keep the debates and ideas going guys.

[Well-Made]

5 hours ago, steelboy said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakrie_Group

This is the conglomerate who own Brisbane Roar.

From their Wikipedia Page

Football club[edit]

Brisbane Roar (2012-present)[edit]

Bakrie Group, through PT. Pelita Jaya Cronus acquired A-League title-holders Brisbane Roar FC in 2011. Bakrie Group initially purchased 70% of the club shares, but in 2012 the Football Federation Australia (FFA) announced that the Bakrie Group has acquired 100% ownership of A-League club Brisbane Roar FC.^[35] In May 2016, Brisbane Roar faced an administrative and financial turbulences when the team ownership held investment in the club, resulting in Brisbane Roar failure to pay staff and players.^[36]

C.S. Visé (2011-2014)[edit]

C.S. Visé, a second division league Belgium football club was acquired by Bakrie Group in 2011,^[37] during Bakrie's ownership Indonesian youth players like Syamsir Alam, Manahati Lestusen and Alfin Tuasalamony were called to play for the club.^[38] C.S Vise was eventually sold by Bakrie Group in 2014.^[39]

 

https://asiatimes.com/2021/06/indonesia-tycoons-name-is-mud-over-unpaid-disaster-dues/

JAKARTA – Fifteen years since a flood of toxic mud and gas spewing out of a breached natural gas well cut road links and forced the mass evacuation of East Java villagers, firms controlled by coal tycoon Aburizal Bakrie have still to pay at least US$100 million in compensation for causing the disaster.

Although the flow from the world’s largest mud volcano has been contained by levees since late 2008 – and is now expelling only a fraction of the 120,000 cubic meters a day it was at its height – experts expect the after-effects will continue to be a problem for the next 30 years.

They warn that because the levees are only made of compacted earth, there is still a real danger of heavy monsoonal rain or increased seismic activity triggering a catastrophic collapse, unleashing an avalanche of mud across an even wider area.

“It is mind-boggling to me that the mud is still flowing,” says one source who was involved in the project at the time of the eruption. “There was a lot of evidence in the seismic of a sub-surface feature, but we thought we were drilling a reef, not a volcano.”

Mud volcanoes are not volcanoes in the accepted sense because they don’t produce magma. They are normally formed when hot water from deep beneath the surface mixes with subterranean mineral deposits and is forced upwards through a geological fault. 

Officials said last December they were still considering ways to collect on the $54.8 million loan taken out by the Bakrie-owned PT Lapindo Bratas and subsidiary PT Minarak Lapindo Jaya to recompense the government for providing the bridging finance to compensate many of the victims.

Lapindo claims to have already paid as much as 8 trillion rupiah ($560 million) as part of the emergency response and victim resettlement, but the State Audit Agency (BKS) says it now remains liable for 1.5 trillion rupiah ($105 million), covering the principal, interest payments and accumulated penalties built up over the past decade.

 

 

and that is an example of why, at this point I have said No to giving up ownership. 

I can't in good faith say I would consider saying yes, even if interested, we need the investment but we also need to have a Club to support in the future.

Until we know who the investors are, what their background is, what baggage they already come with, then I won't be happy to say to the Well Society to give away ownership.

I am not saying after this information is provided that I wouldn;t change my mind but that wasn't an option.

[FirParkCornerExile]

1 hour ago, Well-Made said:

and that is an example of why, at this point I have said No to giving up ownership. 

I can't in good faith say I would consider saying yes, even if interested, we need the investment but we also need to have a Club to support in the future.

Until we know who the investors are, what their background is, what baggage they already come with, then I won't be happy to say to the Well Society to give away ownership.

I am not saying after this information is provided that I wouldn;t change my mind but that wasn't an option.

Surely anyone with an open mind would say yes, hear whats on offer and then cast a future vote knowing if it's potentially as bad as you suspect.