New Investment Options

[dennyc]

3 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

 

It feels to me like the club board had way too much control over the Well Society and limited its power due to the way it was implemented.

I feel as if there is scope for growth there if it is allowed to breath.

But like you say it needs time, and time needs money.

II know this thread was introduced to discuss possible inward investment but clearly those discussions have highlighted the role and importance of the Society. Club and Society are separate entities, but intertwined. And I write this as someone who was invested in the Society from day one, and really wanted it to be a success.

So I think the above is extremely relevant. What is the exact role of the Society and who determines what path they follow? The answers were obvious at one time but now I am not so sure. Does the Society exist to provide short term assistance to the Football Club, and the Football Club alone? Or did it become a tool of the MFC Board, providing permanent finance to not only the Football Club, but also other non core activities? As an example, and tin hat on, what are these 'special projects' for which we were told substantial Society funds were used? Finance for core Club activities or worthwhile causes such as the Community Trust. And before I get slaughtered, I'm not saying the Club should not support the Community. But I am saying that was not the intended role of the Society. The football club and the Society must concentrate on their reason for existing, particularly in such difficult economic times.

To quote some figures. I believe that in it's time the Society has raised over £2m from Members which is commendable. But of that sum, around £1.2m has gone, permanently. Fans donated to the Society with the agreement that Society funds would be provided to the Club in times of need but on a short term loan basis only. The funds to be repaid to the Society as soon as possible from transfer income, league pay outs and the like. The intention being that within 3 years the Club would be operating within its means and that Society funds would grow and be protected at all times. That has just not happened which asks questions of those running both the Society and the Club. Who took those decisions and under what pressure?

Now I get that what I have highlighted is history and we need to move on. We are where we are kind of thing. I have no doubt the new Society Board Members are striving to improve matters and return the Society to how it was intended to operate. The meetings currently taking place are a good start. Anybody standing in the way of that rebrand should not hold sway.

For me to invest further in the Society, and ultimately the Club, I need to be convinced that those changes are taking place and are permanent. I need to see a long term vision which is sustainable. Otherwise circumstances will repeat themselves.

I'm away to hide behind the settee now, tin hat on. With fingers crossed that a miracle takes place at Ibrox in a few hours.

[Kmcalpin]

Anybody enrolled for tomorrow's meetings? I've done so for the 10 am one. 

[El Grew]

On 3/1/2024 at 1:21 PM, Dee said:

For me the most disappointing aspect is the extremely low turnout on what I'd stress is an important issue. 

Agreed and based on the outcome it seems that about 2/3 of Well Society members didn’t care enough to vote. However you would need to try and canvass them to try to ascertain their reasons for not voting before jumping to any conclusions.

[grizzlyg]

Can't make 10 am one but hopefully the 12.00 one

[Spiderpig]

15 hours ago, wellgirl said:

If they can afford it. This is the issue for me. I can afford to give to the well society but probably wouldn't be able to afford shares. That's just me though and my own financial situation 

It all depends what price the shares would be offered at plus buying the shares would be a one off payment and not the ongoing commitment month on month to the WS so it's potentially cheaper.

[Kmcalpin]

Shares have changed hands for about £10 each in recent years. I think the club sets the price.

[Onthefringes]

2 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Shares have changed hands for about £10 each in recent years. I think the club sets the price.

Were 5 times that amount at last offering

[Onthefringes]

1 hour ago, Onthefringes said:

 

[joewarkfanclub]

9 hours ago, wellgirl said:

Have the well society said they want to put forward a proposal? 

Yes they have.

[wellgirl]

4 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Yes they have.

I didn't see that anywhere. Do you have a link? I'm a member but didn't see it in email as far as I'm aware 

[joewarkfanclub]

1 minute ago, wellgirl said:

I didn't see that anywhere. Do you have a link? I'm a member but didn't see it in email as far as I'm aware 

No links.

But information will be incoming shortly.

[joewarkfanclub]

1 minute ago, wellgirl said:

I didn't see that anywhere. Do you have a link? I'm a member but didn't see it in email as far as I'm aware 

No links.

But information will be incoming shortly.

[wellgirl]

1 minute ago, joewarkfanclub said:

No links.

But information will be incoming shortly.

Ok. Thanks 

[Stuwell2]

On 3/1/2024 at 3:45 PM, Kmcalpin said:

I take several things from the results. A quick calculation shows that the adult membership (all those entitled to vote) is approximately 2,760;the rest being juniors.  As I understand it, all those adults who are paying monthly or have put in lump sums were entitled to vote. To me the low response rate is very concerning and is the main conclusion I draw from the results. Why is that? Is every member contactable by email? Some may not be. I also suspect that there are errors in the membership database - not all down to the Society.  I can't quantify them. Some would not understand the wording of the question, as it was a bit woolly, as others have said.  Apathy - yes. 

I voted yes, but have no knowledge whatsoever of the 2 actual offers. I may well change my mind once I find out the details (in fact I probably will).  

Agree with you on the low response, it’s disappointing. A few members may have changed their email address and not notified the society, a few may have sadly passed away, some people may have put money in who aren’t fans but liked the idea of a fan owned club and feel they shouldn’t make decision on the future of the club but added up that’s not enough to make a difference.
The apathy concerns me as like you I voted yes so that no opinion’s were taken off the table but I’m definitely not in favour of giving up on fan ownership and hope that between now and - if - an offer is put before us then the society will try to check that they have the correct and updated details of as many members as possible. 
min not in favour of having the board members standing at games looking for the members as this could lead to them being abused by members/non members. 

[wellgirl]

I went to one of the zoom meetings. Was a good discussion 

[Kmcalpin]

Thanks to Philip and Jay yesterday. I attended the morning Zoom meeting. Its fair to say that the Society had stagnated in recent years. It seems the recent elections have rejuvenated the Board and there's now a wind of change. blowing. I have new found confidence that the Society Board can come up with a workable proposal but it will need members' backing and assistance.    

[Kmcalpin]

Just received a Society email this morning. I'm glad to hear that we're having a Society event on the day of the St Mirren game. Strike while the iron is hot as they say. 

There will be a bucket collection but it's being undertaken by the Society on behalf of the Community Trust. Now I may be in a minority of one here, but although I support the Trust 100%, surely on this particular occasion it should be to boost the coffers of the Society itself? Especially so, given financial concerns articulated at the Club AGM and the need to back a Society proposal with hard cash. 

[Stuwell2]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:32 PM, Kmcalpin said:

…There will be a bucket collection but it's being undertaken by the Society on behalf of the Community Trust. Now I may be in a minority of one here, but although I support the Trust 100%, surely on this particular occasion it should be to boost the coffers of the Society itself? Especially so, given financial concerns articulated at the Club AGM and the need to back a Society proposal with hard cash. 

I’m thinking that possibly by raising money this way it allows the society to have to give less to the trust therefore it’s indirectly beneficial for the society’s bank balance without being seen to be shaking the bucket for themselves. 

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, Stuwell2 said:

I’m thinking that possibly by raising money this way it allows the society to have to give less to the trust therefore it’s indirectly beneficial for the society’s bank balance without being seen to be shaking the bucket for themselves. 

The WS are the majority shareholder at the club ffs organising bucket collections to raise funds is not good optics. As a one off for a specific purpose yes but any more than that and it's begging bowl territory. Unless the WS suddenly gets a few thousand more contributing members, they are probably at the limit of how much cash they can raise, a very limited fan base results in a very limited cash flow.

[Stuwell2]

28 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

The WS are the majority shareholder at the club ffs organising bucket collections to raise funds is not good optics. As a one off for a specific purpose yes but any more than that and it's begging bowl territory. Unless the WS suddenly gets a few thousand more contributing members, they are probably at the limit of how much cash they can raise, a very limited fan base results in a very limited cash flow.

Agree with your sentiments and probably the WS board does too, which is why I suspect they’re having a collection for the community trust to save them having to be seen to give the trust money directly. 
If this raises £2000 for the trust then it’s £2000 that the WS doesn’t need to give them. 

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, Stuwell2 said:

I’m thinking that possibly by raising money this way it allows the society to have to give less to the trust therefore it’s indirectly beneficial for the society’s bank balance without being seen to be shaking the bucket for themselves. 

I take your point but it begs the question as to why The Society has possibly been donating funds to the Trust in the first place. That is not why the Society was created. Worthwhile cause that the Trust undoubtedly is, my understanding is that the role of the Society is to generate funds for emergency use by the Football Club when required. And I believe fans contribute on that understanding. If fans wish to contribute directly to the Trust then all credit to them. I hope they do. 

IF, and I repeat IF, funding  has been provided to the Trust or elsewhere can someone confirm the total sum involved over the years and also confirm who decided such funding was proper use of fan contributions. Are we talking £100s or £1000s? 

The more I read, the more it concerns me that (in the past?) undue pressure may have been put on the Society Board to finance expenditure beyond the remit of the WS. From the figures provided previously, there appears to be over £1m of subscriptions gone forever. Members are entitled to know where those funds went. Especially as they will likely be asked to increase subscription amounts.

 

 

 

[Kmcalpin]

9 hours ago, dennyc said:

I take your point but it begs the question as to why The Society has possibly been donating funds to the Trust in the first place. That is not why the Society was created. Worthwhile cause that the Trust undoubtedly is, my understanding is that the role of the Society is to generate funds for emergency use by the Football Club when required. And I believe fans contribute on that understanding. If fans wish to contribute directly to the Trust then all credit to them. I hope they do. 

IF, and I repeat IF, funding  has been provided to the Trust or elsewhere can someone confirm the total sum involved over the years and also confirm who decided such funding was proper use of fan contributions. Are we talking £100s or £1000s? 

The more I read, the more it concerns me that (in the past?) undue pressure may have been put on the Society Board to finance expenditure beyond the remit of the WS. From the figures provided previously, there appears to be over £1m of subscriptions gone forever. Members are entitled to know where those funds went. Especially as they will likely be asked to increase subscription amounts.

I agree with what you say Denny. I emailed the Society on Sunday to query why the bucket collection was in support of the Community Trust and not the Society.

The answer I received was that the theme of the day is that MFC is a club for everyone and the Society wanted to help celebrate the great work that the Community Trust does, and to encourage its members to think of donating to them (the Trust) as a local charity. The Society hopes to  get lots of people signed up, or rejoining on the day, which will be worth more to it in the long run than a one off collection.

Now, thats laudable in principle, but to me, is contradictory to what is happening right now in terms of working up an investment proposal. I don't undertand how getting more fans to sign up or rejoin on the day is mutually exclusive with a bucket collection in aid of the Society. Lets be clear, a bucket collection on its own will not make a huge difference financially. The impression that I have, maybe wrongly in fairness, is that the club needs an injection of significant investment by October. That news alarmed me and possibly many others. Many of us want the Society to plug any hole with its its own proposal, which it is working up as I type.  Given this situation, many members, like me, have restarted monthly subs or increased them and quite a few new members have joined this call to arms, specifically to help it financially. At this time, the Society cannot afford to ignore any potential source of cash, however modest.  I believe that every penny counts just now. I just find it odd that the Society will be raising funds for a sister organisation at this particular time, when it is in need itself.   

[Jay]

4 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I agree with what you say Denny. I emailed the Society on Sunday to query why the bucket collection was in support of the Community Trust and not the Society.

The answer I received was that the theme of the day is that MFC is a club for everyone and the Society wanted to help celebrate the great work that the Community Trust does, and to encourage its members to think of donating to them (the Trust) as a local charity. The Society hopes to  get lots of people signed up, or rejoining on the day, which will be worth more to it in the long run than a one off collection.

Now, thats laudable in principle, but to me, is contradictory to what is happening right now in terms of working up an investment proposal. I don't undertand how getting more fans to sign up or rejoin on the day is mutually exclusive with a bucket collection in aid of the Society. Lets be clear, a bucket collection on its own will not make a huge difference financially. The impression that I have, maybe wrongly in fairness, is that the club needs an injection of significant investment by October. That news alarmed me and possibly many others. Many of us want the Society to plug any hole with its its own proposal, which it is working up as I type.  Given this situation, many members, like me, have restarted monthly subs or increased them and quite a few new members have joined this call to arms, specifically to help it financially. At this time, the Society cannot afford to ignore any potential source of cash, however modest.  I believe that every penny counts just now. I just find it odd that the Society will be raising funds for a sister organisation at this particular time, when it is in need itself.   

Just wanted to jump on to address this point - I understand why there's a perception that the club needs an injection of significant investment by October, but I think it's important just to add the context to that. If the club finishes 10th without any player sales or cup runs (so, essentially, worst case scenario without going down), there's a gap in the finances in 18 months time of around £750k. It's my understanding that this has essentially been the case for the last couple of years, it's only really being discussed now as a result of the investment video & resulting negotiations that everyone is aware of.

The Well Society has around £750k in reserve so, at the moment, it could be argued that, if we were to finish 10th with no cup runs & no player sales, the Society would already be in a position to meet that shortfall in 18 months time. Of course, that doesn't eradicate the ongoing problem but I think it does at least add a little more context to the situation we're in. In addition, if we finish higher than 10th, that £750k is naturally reduced. And if things go very well in the next few games & we - as unlikely as it seems - make the top six and/or sell Lennon Miller (or Theo Bair!) suddenly the £750k isn't just reduced, it's potentially eradicated for a number of years.

The idea of October as a deadline is a result, I believe, of the need for the club to demonstrate to the SPFL at that point that it can meet its obligations (ie. fixtures) for the following 18 months. It's obviously very difficult to ascertain what that will look like in practice, because by October some of the things I've suggested above could happen - or, of course, we could still be relegated - but I think at this stage there's a genuine hope that, between the potential of a strong end to the season, at least one very sellable asset, and the Society's cashflow, we could do that even without external investment before that point. That's something that might have to be achieved regardless because, as mentioned before, even if we all wanted rid of fan-ownership, there's still a real possibility that the external investment doesn't materialise for a variety of different reasons (including Society members just voting against it).

So yeah, in short, hopefully that adds a little more flesh to the bones around the idea that the club needs an injection of significant investment by October. Simply put, there's a lot of moving parts and, given the model the club operates under & has done for many years (in terms of league position & selling assets), there's still a big question mark around what October even looks like in financial terms. The absolute worst case scenario is needing significant external investment by the date but there are outcomes, however, where that is not necessarily the case. How likely those outcomes are is entirely open to personal opinion I'd imagine.

As for the bucket collection, I have to say I've not been involved in the plans for Well Society Day - other than offering my time on the day - so I can't really comment there.

[dennyc]

Thanks for the update Jay. And for highlighting that the potential funding gap in October is a worst case scenario, but something that has to be planned for. Makes perfect sense.

But as for the other point, and acknowledging that the bucket collection is a relatively minor matter, can you clarify whether Society monies have been/are being utilsed to support worthy causes such as the Trust or have been/are being provided for projects that the Football Club wished carried out?  And if so, to what extent and who authorises that expenditure? There is a sizeable gap between the Balance you quote above and the total received from Members to date. 

I keep coming back to the reason the Society was established in the first place (as a safety net) and to the fairly narrow purposes any funds ingathered were to be used. I appreciate that may be looked upon as history, but as fans and Members are being asked to dig deeper, then I believe they are entitled to know where their contributions are likely to end up. It is one thing providing security for our football Club  (a Contingency Fund for emergency use only), but an entirely different thing supporting charitable causes or funding what might be looked upon by some as non essential projects. Have the lines between Club and Society Funds become blurred?

[weeyin]

I think there is (or was) something in the charter about donating 10% of Society funds to charitable causes, but maybe one of the Board can confirm if that's still in play.

I'm more concerned about losing majority ownership, tbh, because if that happens I'm not sure where I stand when it comes to my contributions.