New Investment Options

[David]

7 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

I can't think of anyone who has, but equally, I also can't really think of anyone who has invested in a Scottish football club with that aim, or at least to make a profit over and above getting their initial money back.

It's for this reason that I find it difficult to believe that anyone putting money into a football club, especially in Scotland, can see it as an investment. 

I work with investors regularly. They tend to make investments to increase their wealth, which is pretty much the definition of investment.

What we're looking for is someone to give us money for free. 

[StAndrew7]

18 minutes ago, David said:

It's for this reason that I find it difficult to believe that anyone putting money into a football club, especially in Scotland, can see it as an investment. 

I work with investors regularly. They tend to make investments to increase their wealth, which is pretty much the definition of investment.

What we're looking for is someone to give us money for free. 

Yeah, I do too and that's why I've taken a particular interest in things (aside from being a shareholder). We regularly look at ROI, IRR, NPV etc. on spend over a much longer term than you would for a football club in my line of work though (20-40 years, as I work in shipyard design), so I guess this will be over a far smaller window and a bit out of my understanding.

I think that's why I want to see/hear more about the ideas behind it; there may well be something unique in the proposals coming from Barmack - there's no reason why it couldn't succeed, even if it's a different approach to the more traditional investment models we've seen in football. I think his track record in developing sports documentaries certainly gives things a different angle; you'd find it difficult to argue that Drive To Survive hasn't increased interest in and the resulting revenues of Formula 1.

I'm still skeptical of it all, I agree, but there's a degree of intrigue that I just can't shake from it all. The devil, as ever, will be very much in the detail if/when it's provided to WS members and shareholders. Like I said on another post, though, I would be looking for some safeguards to be put in place on buying back shares/the WS having first refusal, should he want to pull out for whatever reason in a few seasons/years time.

There is also another consideration; that Barmack may well want to make a return, but over a fairly longer period of time and make things a real partnership between him and the Well Society/fan base to develop the club and its potential exposure to new markets/revenue streams etc.

Again, it's all just speculation until we know details.

[santheman]

As far as I can see  the only area where he would make any return would be from the Social Media angle although I fail to see what a documentary series or weekly blog on a wee team from Lanarkshire would generate in the way of major revenue to justify his investment.

In saying that you hear of people becoming millionaires purely on the utter shite they post on Tik Tok and similar platforms so who's to say that something similar couldn't happen with us.

My gut instinct says fire it into the sea but my curiosity is aroused to see what the actual proposal is.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, David said:

It's for this reason that I find it difficult to believe that anyone putting money into a football club, especially in Scotland, can see it as an investment. 

I work with investors regularly. They tend to make investments to increase their wealth, which is pretty much the definition of investment.

What we're looking for is someone to give us money for free. 

And yet various clubs have succeeded in securing external finance, free or not I don't know. Not saying on terms that would be acceptable to MFC and it's fans, but clearly there are  financially astute people out there that find the Scottish football scene of interest. Until the terms of any offer are released we are all just guessing.

If someone was to inject funds on the understanding they get (say) 20% on any transfer income until such time as their funding is repaid, is that really an investment as you describe it. More of a non dated loan to my thinking.  Again, not saying such a deal is on the table, but it is another avenue that could provide funds without selling the family silver. 

I guess it all comes down to what you consider investment. Let's see what Barmack offers, if anything.

[steelboy]

Barmack's on Twitter getting his hoop licked by the usual suspects so it's obviously still ongoing.

[Stuwell2]

On the “investment/return” discussion I read something which was along the lines of a lot of well off Americans are purchasing/investing in foreign businesses including sports due to when Trump was in power he changed their tax laws to allow money invested abroad to be deductible and simply put this means that if someone pays out $1m then it’s $1m less they pay in tax so it’s basically free money for them to gamble/play with and they get something to add too their portfolio.

Now - being cynical here as I don’t believe he is but - for someone like Barmack being seen to be helping out a wee fan owned Scottish team could, if things go well, potentially get him and his company more publicity and kudos than spending the cash in advertising ever could. 

[David]

1 hour ago, Stuwell2 said:

Now - being cynical here as I don’t believe he is but - for someone like Barmack being seen to be helping out a wee fan owned Scottish team could, if things go well, potentially get him and his company more publicity and kudos than spending the cash in advertising ever could. 

Publicity and kudos from who though?

[steelboy]

I think the benefit to him comes from getting the club on the cheap and being able to produce a docuseries at minimal cost. The increase in value for his production company is far greater than the money he would be putting into us. 

McMahon's crackpot plan involves basically giving him the club for free so it's no real surprise he's enthusiastic. 

[Mccus28]

3 hours ago, steelboy said:

I think the benefit to him comes from getting the club on the cheap and being able to produce a docuseries at minimal cost. The increase in value for his production company is far greater than the money he would be putting into us. 

McMahon's crackpot plan involves basically giving him the club for free so it's no real surprise he's enthusiastic. 

Again....................you're just purely speculating and treating it as fact!!

Why don't you just wait and see what the actual deal involves before going full hatred on the proposal

[wellgirl]

5 hours ago, steelboy said:

I think the benefit to him comes from getting the club on the cheap and being able to produce a docuseries at minimal cost. The increase in value for his production company is far greater than the money he would be putting into us. 

McMahon's crackpot plan involves basically giving him the club for free so it's no real surprise he's enthusiastic. 

So he's going to make a docuseries that's going to magically increase the value of his production company. To a far greater level than the money he's investing in us. But he's not investing in us - he's getting the club for free? 

 

(No he's not). BTW. He's a multi millionaire - I don't think he needs to do a docuseries on Motherwell fc to get him a few more quid in the bank. 

🙄

[weeyin]

If you want to see what multi-millionaires can do to a club, look at Man Utd.

They bought everything without investing a penny of their own money, award themselves huge wads of cash every year while leaving the club servicing huge debts at high interest rates - debts that are secured by the clubs assets; not by the owners' assets.

I'm not saying that is what will happen here, but there are ways to invest in a club and there are "ways" to invest in a club.

As I've said before, the most important thing for me is the exit plan. What is going to happen when the investor leaves, runs out of money or gets bored? Are they going to take their money and run, will they sell to a property developer or will they leave a self-sustaining (or at least healthy) infrastructure behind.

[Spiderpig]

The only way i can see an investor potentially making money from a club like Motherwell is by having full control over all its assets etc. 

Yes they may see the cash they put in as a tax incentive, good advertising etc but multi millionaires don't give away cash with no prospect of a return. 

And as some of the current board have made it clear they want out, I can see us having new owners whether or not they have full control all depends on how the WS fits into the plans.

[Onthefringes]

42 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

The only way i can see an investor potentially making money from a club like Motherwell is by having full control over all its assets etc. 

Yes they may see the cash they put in as a tax incentive, good advertising etc but multi millionaires don't give away cash with no prospect of a return. 

And as some of the current board have made it clear they want out, I can see us having new owners whether or not they have full control all depends on how the WS fits into the plans.

Point 1. Piffle. Look at the bigger picture.

Point 2. Stating the obvious. To the best of knowledge, that’s not his end game.

Point 3. Those making it clear they want out - you do realise current board cannot sell out despite their best endeavours to do so? The narrative being peddled by Society board members misguided or not is exactly that.

 

[David]

3 hours ago, weeyin said:

As I've said before, the most important thing for me is the exit plan.

This is key. We can all discuss future award-winning documentary series, Netflix, TikTok and so on, but we need to know what the actual angle here is. 

4 hours ago, wellgirl said:

BTW. He's a multi millionaire - I don't think he needs to do a docuseries on Motherwell fc to get him a few more quid in the bank.

You're 100% correct. Which begs the question...why? 

All questions that will need to be answered before I decide which way I'd vote, if asked. And I hope others do the same.

[StAndrew7]

9 minutes ago, David said:

This is key. We can all discuss future award-winning documentary series, Netflix, TikTok and so on, but we need to know what the actual angle here is. 

All questions that will need to be answered before I decide which way I'd vote, if asked. And I hope others do the same.

These two points are 100% where I'm coming at this from, too. There needs to be a "secure" exit/route for the WS to buy back any shares issued to investors to regain its original holding (or however that will work in any proposal).

On the second point, if there are details of a proposed investment issued and it's a comprehensive package, I'll be taking an afternoon or full day off work to go through it line by line, in detail (because I'm a bit sad like that). It needs to be given proper consideration, as (stating the obvious) it has the potential to be massive for the club, both positively and negatively.

However, if it proposes the WS/fans losing majority ownership, I won't bother looking at it at all.

[David]

Just now, StAndrew7 said:

On the second point, if there are details of a proposed investment issued and it's a comprehensive package, I'll be taking an afternoon or full day off work to go through it line by line, in detail (because I'm a bit sad like that). It needs to be given proper consideration, as (stating the obvious) it has the potential to be massive for the club, both positively and negatively.

On this, I'd hope there's a good number of Society members who do exactly that and then pass any concerns or questions on to the Society board, who can then go about getting those questions answered. 

Perhaps even via a video Q&A? Maybe hoping for a bit too much there though.

1 minute ago, StAndrew7 said:

However, if it proposes the WS/fans losing majority ownership, I won't bother looking at it at all.

Me too. We've simply come too far and have secured a position as a fan group that countless other club's fanbases would kill to have.

We can't throw that away based on short-term thinking. I'd hope when the arse eventually falls out of the English league (and it will, that model isn't sustainable long-term) and the aftershock affects certain clubs up here who are operating outside of their means, we are still standing as a fan-owned club.

[StAndrew7]

Just now, David said:

On this, I'd hope there's a good number of Society members who do exactly that and then pass any concerns or questions on to the Society board, who can then go about getting those questions answered. 

Perhaps even via a video Q&A? Maybe hoping for a bit too much there though.

Me too. We've simply come too far and have secured a position as a fan group that countless other club's fanbases would kill to have.

We can't throw that away based on short-term thinking. I'd hope when the arse eventually falls out of the English league (and it will, that model isn't sustainable long-term) and the aftershock affects certain clubs up here who are operating outside of their means, we are still standing as a fan-owned club.

Yeah, I'd certainly be looking for an avenue to be asking questions of the Exec Board/Club/Directors as a private shareholder, so I would absolutely expect the same avenue for members of the WS.

You latter point is absolutely spot on, too. English football will burst at some point; it almost did with the Super League proposals and, frankly, that will come around again and with other American ownership coming in (and FIFA/PL announcing the possibility of domestic games being played abroad) it will just continue to become more and more of a circus. There's a few basket case clubs already, see Everton, Forest etc.

[Stuwell2]

12 hours ago, weeyin said:

As I've said before, the most important thing for me is the exit plan. What is going to happen when the investor leaves, runs out of money or gets bored? Are they going to take their money and run, will they sell to a property developer or will they leave a self-sustaining (or at least healthy) infrastructure behind.

One way of doing this - although I’d be shocked if it happened - would be as part of the agreement the WS gets a small % of any transfer money up to a certain value (say £1.5m which would take a long time granted) that is then invested long term and ring fenced in such a way that it is there to ensure the clubs future.
Never going to happen though. 

[wellfan]

Caldwell described the investment from Erik Barmack as a 'takeover'. Freudian slip? The investment update starts at 6:48.

 

[wellfan]

Barmack is watching, according to his article:

https://theankler.com/p/how-i-used-ai-to-brainstorm-a-show

“As a sidenote, this idea has come because my family is considering an investment in a Scottish Football Club, Motherwell. Whether this is a sound business decision is a matter discussed with my wife between 1 a.m. and 3 a.m. But here we are now, later in the night, and I’m oscillating between surfing through message boards on the “Steelmen” (Motherwell’s nickname) and thinking that some buyer would be interested in a dramedy set in the world of something like the Scottish Premiership, while using the voices of famous football players (and yes, the actual voices of Mbappe and Vinicius Jr., and not AI-generated clones of players that clubs like Motherwell could never have).”

 

[weeyin]

While obviously on a completely different scale, there's an interesting article in The Guardian today that discusses and rates the successes and failures of American investors in English, Italian and Fench clubs.

 

 

Full article here.

 

[ropy]

On 5/21/2024 at 12:03 PM, weeyin said:

As I've said before, the most important thing for me is the exit plan. What is going to happen when the investor leaves, runs out of money or gets bored? Are they going to take their money and run, will they sell to a property developer or will they leave a self-sustaining (or at least healthy) infrastructure behind.

This has consistently been my position too, what happens in the end?  I can get on board with the recent chat about a partnership, an investor can put his money in and use us to his advantage, a marketing ploy, a commercial venture or just bragging rights to his chums (good luck there).  But his project is likely to be a 5 year or at most a 10 year one, what happens then, how does he get out, is there an agreed exit, what if he has made no money?

If he wants to take control he needs to invest some serious money, say £10M, but what does this mean?  It means he owns a company with £10M in cash, who is in control of that cash, him?  He could pay that as a dividend.

I am happy for us to be exploring this concept but the outcome needs to be a strong club because we will still be here when the investor has gone, (and so will Bevis presumably).

[Kmcalpin]

Valid points Ropy and Weeyin.

I'm very much open to both routes, but the devil will be in the detail and will emerge in good time.  I'm greedy as I  do want more investment in our club but I also want our long term future safeguarded.

I'm still unclear as to the involvement, active or otherwise, of the Society in the external investor discussions and no doubt that will eventually emerge in the wash.  It would be absurd, to the point of being incredible, if there hasn't been any at all.

If the external investment route proves to be a dead end then the Society really needs to come up with a credible alternative which is based on much more than fund raising events and bucket collections, valuable as they are. 

[Big Wispy Flossy]

When it comes to discussing options, if it suggested that they can offer a credible alternative, the well society need to be fully transparent and  outline how much has been generated in fundraising up until now excluding subscriptions. 

[David]

3 hours ago, wellgirl said:

Some fans don't want investment. They've been at pains to say everything is fine as it is. 

We clearly can't compete with other clubs who have more cash to spend but that is what it is. 

No, I think most fans would be interested in investment. However, what we're often discussing isn't true investment. Instead, most fans are talking about someone giving us money to spend on players we can't really afford.

If someone is serious about investing, they need to clearly state how much they plan to invest and show exactly how they expect to get a return on that investment. That's the key aspect for me. By definition, an investment must provide a tangible return for the investor.

What I find concerning is the lack of specificity in the proposals we've seen so far. For instance, the individual we've been linked with seems to rely on vague terms like 'narratives ', 'connecting dots ', 'TikTok ', 'building value ', and 'passion '. These are industry buzzwords that don't provide a clear plan of action.

I hope I'm wrong and that we get something solid from this guy, but if I had to guess, I'd say we're not going to get a straight answer about his plans.

If he were a serious investor, his answer to the BBC and any other media outfit contacting him about the potential deal would have been "no comment."