New Investment Options

[Kmcalpin]

8 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

Or is the possible Well Society % a max of 50.1%?

IF that were to be the case, presumably if I were to offer to gift or donate even a modest amount of privately held shares, to take its holding even very slightly over the 50.1% then that would be blocked by the Executive Board? 

[wellfan]

I should've stayed at the Euros where the Alt Bier and Kolsch rendered me blissfully incapable of keeping up-to-date with this nonsense all week.

That said, the amended proposal can also get in the bin alongside the previous appalling draft. As can the Executive Board. Their collective bluster and incompetence know no bounds. 

[steelboy]

It's good to see they are emphasising legal advice. 

Call the vote off and restart negotiations with Barmack directly through the new Society Board. 

The fact that we have had people in charge of this process who apparently only discovered the official definition of fan ownership two days ago perfectly enscapulates how farcical every aspect of this is. 

[steelboy]

Start the new negotations with three red lines.

(1) The Well Society cannot drop below 51%.

(2) The Well Society will not fund any reduction of its own shareholding.  

(3) The make up of the board will reflect the existing shareholding. Barmack will have as much influence as his shareholding and overall contribution to the club merits. 

 

[Spiderpig]

As much as I think the Barmack offer is a bad deal, sooner or later people need to wake up to the reality that further investment comes at a cost. We're never going to attract a multi millionaire who will offer us a million a year no strings attached and say spend it wisely and let me know how you get on.

The Barmack's of this world want a return on their cash, ie control of the club and it's assets that's their guarantee, so if this offer is rejected we will be having this debate with the next Barmack etc.

The main issue we have is the WS, nobody is going to invest money and not have full control of the club, they don't want to be annoyed by the WS. So for me the only way I can see is for the WS to come up with their own plan to provide additional investment and for them to start controlling the club as they should be as majority shareholders.

But that said in its current format I have no confidence in that happening, it needs proper professional people onboard, not the enthusiastic volunteers it has now. We are paying the price now for a WS badly set up and implemented at the start.

[Kmcalpin]

4 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

The main issue we have is the WS, nobody is going to invest money and not have full control of the club, they don't want to be annoyed by the WS. So for me the only way I can see is for the WS to come up with their own plan to provide additional investment and for them to start controlling the club as they should be as majority shareholders.

You've hit the nail on the head Allan. That would be a win win situation. Time will tell if its achievable. We'll be in a better position once we see the Society's new strategic plan.

Either that or a philanthropic white knight or lady and I can't see any riding towards us even with my telescope. 

[santheman]

24 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

As much as I think the Barmack offer is a bad deal, sooner or later people need to wake up to the reality that further investment comes at a cost. We're never going to attract a multi millionaire who will offer us a million a year no strings attached and say spend it wisely and let me know how you get on.

The Barmack's of this world want a return on their cash, ie control of the club and it's assets that's their guarantee, so if this offer is rejected we will be having this debate with the next Barmack etc.

The main issue we have is the WS, nobody is going to invest money and not have full control of the club, they don't want to be annoyed by the WS. So for me the only way I can see is for the WS to come up with their own plan to provide additional investment and for them to start controlling the club as they should be as majority shareholders.

But that said in its current format I have no confidence in that happening, it needs proper professional people onboard, not the enthusiastic volunteers it has now. We are paying the price now for a WS badly set up and implemented at the start.

All I would add to that is if TRUE fan ownership is the holy grail then we had better be prepared to dig very deep into our pockets.

 

[wellfan]

I don't think the Executive Board only discovered what fan ownership meant two days ago, as their second statement suggests; they know what it means and thought they were smart enough to pull the wool over our eyes but failed. Their behaviour throughout this debacle should render their positions untenable, particularly their involvement in future negotiations. I agree with steelboy that the whole thing should be halted, hopefully following sound legal advice, and that Barmack should start again, but directly with the Well Society and its red lines. 

[steelboy]

23 minutes ago, wellfan said:

 I agree with steelboy that the whole thing should be halted, hopefully following sound legal advice, and that Barmack should start again, but directly with the Well Society and its red lines. 

Aye it seems clear that

1. The proposal is in direct conflict with the Well Society constitution

2. The situation with the Well Society appointed Executive Board members is shambolic meaning the Society has not been properly represented during the process.

3. The very late change to the Head of Terms with seemingly no Society input invalidates the entire 4 month process.

Just tell the members we cannot proceed legally and start talking to Barmack directly.

[Spiderpig]

43 minutes ago, santheman said:

All I would add to that is if TRUE fan ownership is the holy grail then we had better be prepared to dig very deep into our pockets.

 

Correct, there is a cost attached to everything, however is the Motherwell fan base large enough to realise that goal.

[Spiderpig]

29 minutes ago, wellfan said:

I don't think the Executive Board only discovered what fan ownership meant two days ago, as their second statement suggests; they know what it means and thought they were smart enough to pull the wool over our eyes but failed. Their behaviour throughout this debacle should render their positions untenable, particularly their involvement in future negotiations. I agree with steelboy that the whole thing should be halted, hopefully following sound legal advice, and that Barmack should start again, but directly with the Well Society and its red lines. 

Do you really believe Barmack is going to do a deal with the WS directly on the premis that he puts in a significant amount of cash but he's never going to be in Control, no guarantee of a return etc, that's fantasy its never going to happen with him or any other investor.

[steelboy]

4 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Correct, there is a cost attached to everything, however is the Motherwell fan base large enough to realise that goal.

The only time we have had significant injections of money from outside investors in my lifetime has been with Boyle for the first four years of his ownership which ended up almost killing the club then Les coming in and handing his chequebook to Barraclough which was another disaster. We have performed better as a football club when we are standing on our own feet.

A change from a Jim McMahon dominated board to one which reflects the Well Society's position doesn't have to change anything financially.

[steelboy]

1 minute ago, Spiderpig said:

Do you really believe Barmack is going to do a deal with the WS directly on the premis that he puts in a significant amount of cash but he's never going to be in Control, no guarantee of a return etc, that's fantasy its never going to happen with him or any other investor.

The only deal is a rip off so we have to take it?

[Spiderpig]

8 minutes ago, steelboy said:

The only deal is a rip off so we have to take it?

No we don't but people need to realise that any other deal from any other investor will be fundamentally the same.

"The club needs investment I have the cash to invest, so here's what it will cost for that investment " deal or no deal.

As I said earlier if we really want to embrace true fan ownership then the WS needs to be made fit for purpose, come up with its own plan and as Santheman said a few posts ago, tell the members to prepare to dig deep financially to make it happen. As bucket collections etc won't cut it.

[santheman]

13 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Correct, there is a cost attached to everything, however is the Motherwell fan base large enough to realise that goal.

Depends how much each WS member is prepared to put into the club.

I don't know the breakdown of membership but we had 3300 members at the last count which has probably increased since then.

How much does the WS bring in via DD's?

How many are Junior members unlikely to contribute monthly?

How many have made an initial payment but nothing ongoing?

That would give us an indication of what level of ongoing funds the WS could reasonably expect at current levels

 

 

 

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

All I would add to that is if TRUE fan ownership is the holy grail then we had better be prepared to dig very deep into our pockets.

 

Your comments are always realistic and worth considering San, and when you post, I sit up and take notice.

We've read thousands of words on here and elsewhere expressing negative sentiments, and thats fine and just. Comments about what isn't acceptable and that in itself is very helpful but we must must now move the discussion on in a more positive vein.  I'm hopeful that the Well Society's impending announcement will do exactly that.

Yes, I think you're right, in that Society members may well have to dig deeper, and I don't think some will have a problem with that (there is a limit to this source though).  However, I hope that the Society comes up with more, much more than that.  Unless the vote is pulled, then the Society has to consider 2 scenarios in its strategic plan. The first being that the Wild Sheep proposal is deemed acceptable by stakeholders. The second being that its rejected and the Society, does its own thing, for the time being at least. 

Apart from the membership contributing more, if indeed thats whats advocated,  I really hope that the Society's Plan focuses very heavily on community and local business involvement. In my eyes this is absolutely critical to investment. Half hearted attempts were made in the past to do this with very limited success.  It will also have to be careful not to impinge on the club's contact with businesses; rather build on that and complement it.  I'm hopeful that the Society will do the above given its recent attitudes survey. Its how it uses that information that will count. 

An absolute must in my view is for the Society to reinstate its own website and surely this should be done quickly and at relatively low cost given the number of experts in our support, many of whom would no doubt volunteer their services free of charge as they have generously done in the past.  

As a aside, for those who wish to preserve the club as it is, as opposed to conserving it, Kilmarnock have announced plans for a new upgraded Academy facility. That is what we'll be competing against. 

[steelboy]

6 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

As a aside, for those who wish to preserve the club as it is, as opposed to conserving it, Kilmarnock have announced plans for a new upgraded Academy facility. That is what we'll be competing against. 

We already have grass parks. 

[wellfan]

41 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Do you really believe Barmack is going to do a deal with the WS directly on the premis that he puts in a significant amount of cash but he's never going to be in Control, no guarantee of a return etc, that's fantasy its never going to happen with him or any other investor.

My point is that if there is to be a deal negotiated in the current context of a departing chairman and compromised board members, it should be struck between the investor (e.g. Barmack or An Other) and the owner (the Well Society), not the Executive Board. However, as I've said throughout, the proposed (and amended) deal with Barmack can get in the bin, as the terms are appalling, hence the recent tweaks, which are still shite.

If Barmack disagrees with the Well Society's position and forges ahead under the steam of the Executive Board, we go to a vote, which he will either (a) lose or (b) achieve a pyrrhic victory. Neither is a good outcome for him. 

In short, he should take his meagre investment and delusional aspirations elsewhere. His cash offer is insignificant. But, if it is appealing to Barmack to achieve a deal that works for all parties, with some fair and reasonable concessions from all sides, he's welcome to reopen negotiations with the Well Society, as they noted in their short response last night. 

[Kmcalpin]

59 minutes ago, steelboy said:

We already have grass parks. 

When we're speaking to a parent with a prospective Academy entrant I think that selling point might well leave them somewhat.....unimpressed.

My point is that our competitors are upping their game.  

[steelboy]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

When we're speaking to a parent with a prospective Academy entrant I think that selling point might well leave them somewhat.....unimpressed.

My point is that our competitors are upping their game.  

Kilmarnock are moving from having their academy team playing on the shitty surface at Rugby Park to something similar to what we already have.

[David]

4 hours ago, santheman said:

All I would add to that is if TRUE fan ownership is the holy grail then we had better be prepared to dig very deep into our pockets.

If the Wild Sheep sports offer is accepted, fans should be prepared to dig very deep into their pockets.

Under that agreement, the Well Society is committing to raising their current yearly contributions by 11% for the first three years, and by almost 40% in the final three.

Furthermore, those funds raised won't go into a "rainy day" pot for use in case of emergencies. Instead, the funds will go directly to the club to be used as the executive board, chaired by Erik Barmack, sees fit.

2 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

However, I hope that the Society comes up with more, much more than that.  Unless the vote is pulled, then the Society has to consider 2 scenarios in its strategic plan. The first being that the Wild Sheep proposal is deemed acceptable by stakeholders. The second being that its rejected and the Society, does its own thing, for the time being at least.

I am aware that the Society is developing a plan; however, it should be noted that the Society Board has not been employed to manage the club and generate revenue. This is where the confusion arises.

The club Chairman, CEO, and executive board are meant to be the braintrust responsible for running the club itself. The Society’s role is to plan and raise funds for a cash reserve to be utilised in emergencies.

At present, the club board wishes to have almost complete control over the club and full control over negotiations with Wild Sheep Sports, yet it seems to be interested in the Society’s funds.

In essence, the message appears to be, "Give us your contributions and money, and be quiet. The adults will handle everything. We just need you to pay for it."

2 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I really hope that the Society's Plan focuses very heavily on community and local business involvement. In my eyes this is absolutely critical to investment. Half hearted attempts were made in the past to do this with very limited success.  It will also have to be careful not to impinge on the club's contact with businesses; rather build on that and complement it.

Why hasn’t the club itself formulated a plan to focus significantly on community and local business investment? The Society should be concerned with this only in terms of raising funds for the Society.

What we need to clarify is whether the Society is now being asked to act as a proactive majority stakeholder, providing funding and business direction as well as directly financing the club.

If so, that’s acceptable. However, it comes with a cost, and that cost is the Society having much more influence over how things are managed. I am quite certain McMahon will not tolerate this.

[dennyc]

Giving thought to the present situation at the Club.

I think Kmcalpin talks a lot of sense and I agree with him that change on a number of fronts is essential otherwise we will be left behind by our peers. The Society with it's limitations is just not enough. Investment being part, but not all of the action required. But this deal is not for me as it lacks actual detail.....much has been said already about the lack of a workable Business Plan....and threatens the Community and fan based principles of the Club. But it does point to a number of areas that should be investigated. Sadly however, I see of a lot of give from the Society with very little heading the other way. The balance is just not right. The deal reeks of a keen to depart Chairman grasping at the first offer he has been able to get on the table, irrespective and non-caring of potential outcomes.

For me the way ahead is to decline the amended offer. Then, if the sale of Bair/Miller (or both) is as advanced as some say, utilise a large portion of those funds to buy time to address relationships, efficiencies and structures within the Club. The end result being a refreshed, forward thinking Exec Board that does not look upon Society funds as the easy and only solution to all. We do have that time. No income streams have been lost since season end. in fact new TV and sponsorship deals have boosted income, although exact amounts are not known. And transfer income looks likely.

I see Brian Caldwell playing an important role in that progression towards a Board that is willing to work with the Society to JOINTLY explore all areas where investment might be secured. Starting within the Community but also looking to other areas. I would not rule out working with Barmack or the like to bring a mindset and qualities to the Club Board that I believe are currently sadly lacking. But not at any cost.  I also don't think it is solely up to the WS to secure investment and I believe that  suggestion was a not so subtle attempt by McMahon to heap pressure on the Society Board and manoeuvre fans towards his escape plan. Sadly it appears some fans have been taken in by that ploy and are looking for far too much from the much awaited Society proposal. Fear is another tactic I see deployed. 

My view (and I have no insider contact) is that the current Board became complacent, were resistant to change and ran out of ideas. At the same time shutting out the Society resulting in friction and resentment. In some cases ego possibly played a large part. I also find it telling that a number of people in the past couple of years have up and left the Exec Board. I don't believe in coincidence.

I hope a lot of good can come from this entire situation. Bringing about a proactive, more open Exec Board working closely with a stronger and united Society Board for the benefit of club, fans and community alike. That will take time. But I repeat, we have that time given assurances made that the Club is not in a critical situation.

But the Membership will decide and I have idea how that vote will go.

 

 

 

I now see David beat me to some of this! Sorry if repetition

 

 

 

[wunderwell]

1 hour ago, David said:

If the Wild Sheep sports offer is accepted, fans should be prepared to dig very deep into their pockets.

Under that agreement, the Well Society is committing to raising their current yearly contributions by 11% for the first three years, and by almost 40% in the final three.

Furthermore, those funds raised won't go into a "rainy day" pot for use in case of emergencies. Instead, the funds will go directly to the club to be used as the executive board, chaired by Erik Barmack, sees fit.

I am aware that the Society is developing a plan; however, it should be noted that the Society Board has not been employed to manage the club and generate revenue. This is where the confusion arises.

The club Chairman, CEO, and executive board are meant to be the braintrust responsible for running the club itself. The Society’s role is to plan and raise funds for a cash reserve to be utilised in emergencies.

At present, the club board wishes to have almost complete control over the club and full control over negotiations with Wild Sheep Sports, yet it seems to be interested in the Society’s funds.

In essence, the message appears to be, "Give us your contributions and money, and be quiet. The adults will handle everything. We just need you to pay for it."

Why hasn’t the club itself formulated a plan to focus significantly on community and local business investment? The Society should be concerned with this only in terms of raising funds for the Society.

What we need to clarify is whether the Society is now being asked to act as a proactive majority stakeholder, providing funding and business direction as well as directly financing the club.

If so, that’s acceptable. However, it comes with a cost, and that cost is the Society having much more influence over how things are managed. I am quite certain McMahon will not tolerate this.

Yes as a general BUT the Society can barely manage themselves.

All this chat about how the new members are doing so much more?
Quantify that - two statements and getting everyones details updated on the database and a couple more buckets at the game. C'mon........

Still waiting on this game changing plan. Eric B is acting when is the WS going to?

Maybe start with a date when we can all expect to receive the info by.

[wunderwell]

4 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

Yes as a general BUT the Society can barely manage themselves.

All this chat about how the new members are doing so much more?
Quantify that - two statements and getting everyones details updated on the database and a couple more buckets at the game. C'mon........

Still waiting on this game changing plan. Eric B is acting when is the WS going to?

Maybe start with a date when we can all expect to receive the info by.

As in politics
The guys in charge (or the offer) is terrible.  Both apt in this case.
Whats your plans?
That's no the point, guys in charge/offer is terrible

[wellfan]

8 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

Yes as a general BUT the Society can barely manage themselves.

All this chat about how the new members are doing so much more?

Quantify that - two statements and getting everyones details updated on the database and a couple more buckets at the game. C'mon........

Still waiting on this game changing plan. Eric B is acting when is the WS going to?

Maybe start with a date when we can all expect to receive the info by.

I imagine it’s difficult for the Well Society Board to respond comprehensively to your satisfaction, when the Executive Board keep moving the goalposts, excluding them from important discussions, railroading them into a vote, and at the same time having had 3 of their board members turn on them.

With that in mind, I’d maybe give the Well Society Board a bit of a break and support them in their endeavours to produce their promised business plan, because at the moment all the Executive Board have engaged is an investor with zero business plan and all the buzzwords.