Pepper Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, bobbybingo said: It sounds very like yourself, and some others on here, have taken the stance that any outside investor should be hunted, even before any discussions as to their intent, because their intent will inevitably be bad. You might well be right, but it can't be that simple. The Well Society is a large group of individuals, so not everyone will share that view, obviously. And the glaring questions remain - whre will the Society drum up substantial no strings attached investment, and why wait till now to start doing something about it? That's not what I actually said though. I'm not even disputing the fact that it is going to be challenging for the Society to raise investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 14 minutes ago, dennyc said: As you are well aware these were only examples on non fan owned Clubs. You have avoided the real question. Why would anybody take on the challenges of buying a fan owned Club when other simpler, less challenging options are available? Clubs worldwide that could be bought without needing any fan buy in. There have already been 45 or so UK clubs bought by Americans. There aren't many left to buy and we attractive because (1) we run at a profit (2) have no debt other than to the Well Society who will never call it in (3) McMahon has obviously told them that the Well Society members are stupid enough to effectively hand the club for free. From what I have heard they intend to make a documentary series as part of an expansion of their Hollywood business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 It's worth noting that the club accounts say the club is financially stable and there is no mention of any requirement for outside investment. Weir and McMahon brought up the need for 'transformational' investment but at no time actually described what they wanted us to transform into. They then shut up about 'auditors' pretty quickly when supporters started to ask about the clubs spending commitments and budgets. It's all been bullshit dreamed up by a PR firm designed to trick the Well Society members into handing the club over for a bag of magic beans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergie79 Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 Regarding figures what would be deemed sufficient to even offer 49% of club to potential buyers given the ground Fir Park is on must have decent value, the player assets also have decent value and the business as a whole has some value...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 7 minutes ago, Fergie79 said: Regarding figures what would be deemed sufficient to even offer 49% of club to potential buyers given the ground Fir Park is on must have decent value, the player assets also have decent value and the business as a whole has some value...? The most recent club accounts list our assets at £8 million so that's the minimum but it's obviously more than that due to our status as a top flight club and potential for player sales. It's worth remembering that the Americans don't actually intend to buy any shares. The proposal seems to be that the club will issue new shares that are given to the Americans in return for working capital (which they can later withdraw at will). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 13 minutes ago, steelboy said: It's worth noting that the club accounts say the club is financially stable and there is no mention of any requirement for outside investment. Weir and McMahon brought up the need for 'transformational' investment but at no time actually described what they wanted us to transform into. They then shut up about 'auditors' pretty quickly when supporters started to ask about the clubs spending commitments and budgets. It's all been bullshit dreamed up by a PR firm designed to trick the Well Society members into handing the club over for a bag of magic beans. But apparently you've said this year's team is dog shit - and that might be your genuinely held view. But we can't have this all ways. We can't be criticising fans who think we are punching above our weight making top six when fan ownership isn't allowing us to compete in the transfer market. Taking Van Veen as an example - I think we did the right thing not going for him - and I get that other factors are in play - fans coming through the gates are going to be different at every club etc but if we do want to compete with other clubs for players - we need more money. Otherwise we will be relying on loans, young talent and players like Bair the manager can help develop. It's all very well saying the club is financially stable. We are stagnating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 20 minutes ago, steelboy said: It's worth noting that the club accounts say the club is financially stable and there is no mention of any requirement for outside investment. Weir and McMahon brought up the need for 'transformational' investment but at no time actually described what they wanted us to transform into. They then shut up about 'auditors' pretty quickly when supporters started to ask about the clubs spending commitments and budgets. It's all been bullshit dreamed up by a PR firm designed to trick the Well Society members into handing the club over for a bag of magic beans. Define "magic beans". None of us know what the proposed investment is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 29 minutes ago, steelboy said: There have already been 45 or so UK clubs bought by Americans. There aren't many left to buy and we attractive because (1) we run at a profit (2) have no debt other than to the Well Society who will never call it in (3) McMahon has obviously told them that the Well Society members are stupid enough to effectively hand the club for free. From what I have heard they intend to make a documentary series as part of an expansion of their Hollywood business. See all this "from what you have heard" - that's just more rumours clearly. See unless people know something as fact - maybe it shouldn't be shared. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 59 minutes ago, steelboy said: There have already been 45 or so UK clubs bought by Americans. There aren't many left to buy and we attractive because (1) we run at a profit (2) have no debt other than to the Well Society who will never call it in (3) McMahon has obviously told them that the Well Society members are stupid enough to effectively hand the club for free. From what I have heard they intend to make a documentary series as part of an expansion of their Hollywood business. Ah, so with 45 Clubs UK wide already purchased, we are all that is left? That is a really credible basis for such an astute businessman to become involved. What about worldwide? Much as I love Scotland there must be other countries that boast non fan owned Clubs available for purchase. You still have not told me why us, rather than them. How much profit did we make in the most recent set of Accounts? Or the previous set? As for McMahon, your comments are bordering on fixation. But at least they tie in to your conspiracy theory. ' From what you have heard'? Heard from who? I don't know whether Barmack is seeking majority control. Neither do you. Unless you do have that hard evidence I asked for. If he does, it will become evident soon. Then the Society Members have a decision to make. As is their legal right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 2 minutes ago, dennyc said: Ah, so with 45 Clubs UK wide already purchased, we are all that is left? That is a really credible basis for such an astute businessman to become involved. What about worldwide? Much as I love Scotland there must be other countries that boast non fan owned Clubs available for purchase. You still have not told me why us, rather than them. How much profit did we make in the most recent set of Accounts? Or the previous set? As for McMahon, your comments are bordering on fixation. But at least they tie in to your conspiracy theory. ' From what you have heard'? Heard from who? I don't know whether Barmack is seeking majority control. Neither do you. Unless you do have that hard evidence I asked for. If he does, it will become evident soon. Then the Society Members have a decision to make. As is their legal right. And you comments re I explained that the deal looks like it is to get majority control essentially for free. It's the equivalent of buying a £20 quid note for a fiver. That's why us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 3 hours ago, Pepper said: The point I'm making is that the Society, at the very least, should have been given the chance to raise that investment whatever form it may take, without being undermined by those running the Club. Maybe, but why should it have taken until now for the Society to up its game? Why wasn't the Society actively examining and proposing meaningful ways to increase the membership and raise further inward investment? Why has it taken until now for the Society to confirm that 3800 members don't correlate with 3800 active monthly direct debits? Has the Society been in cruise control for many years, resting on its laurels until it felt a threat from the Club? Both the Society and Club are within their rights to propose anything concerning ownership and inward investment, and perhaps it's just that the latter got its finger out first. I am a monthly paying Society member and have been for a long time, but there are so many other unanswered questions and points of speculation to be had from both sides, which has me questioning what's going on behind the scenes. This whole thread is becoming a tit-for-tat nonsense. Keep it up, everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, Pepper said: That's not what I actually said though. I'm not even disputing the fact that it is going to be challenging for the Society to raise investment. I'm not sure about this guy and I'd be naturally wary of any outside investor. But I don't think we can afford to dismiss this, or any other, approach out of hand until the WS have been given a go at finding more money, unless they have a very clear, realistic plan already formulated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 1 minute ago, bobbybingo said: I'm not sure about this guy and I'd be naturally wary of any outside investor. But I don't think we can afford to dismiss this, or any other, approach out of hand until the WS have been given a go at finding more money, unless they have a very clear, realistic plan already formulated. As other people have said - where are the Well society going to find other money from? Unless there are cash reserves somewhere. I know it's possible that they could ask for extra donations from members. My whole issue with fan ownership is that there simply aren't enough members to make it work. No more than that - and I'm a member. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 1 minute ago, wellgirl said: As other people have said - where are the Well society going to find other money from? Unless there are cash reserves somewhere. I know it's possible that they could ask for extra donations from members. My whole issue with fan ownership is that there simply aren't enough members to make it work. No more than that - and I'm a member. The argument seems to be, if we get reasonable investment from one source, that source is going to demand control of the club. That's a logical argument. If we don't want to entertain that possibility, smaller amounts will need to come from multiple sources. If businesses etc are out there, ready and willing to hand money to Motherwell without any say in how it's spent, why haven't they come forward before now, and why hasn't anyone at the club or WS previously identified them? Failing that, we're looking at appeals for those extra donations, raffles or bucket collections - which only feed into the 'we're skint' narrative, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 21 minutes ago, wellfan said: Maybe, but why should it have taken until now for the Society to up its game? Why wasn't the Society actively examining and proposing meaningful ways to increase the membership and raise further inward investment? Why has it taken until now for the Society to confirm that 3800 members don't correlate with 3800 active monthly direct debits? Has the Society been in cruise control for many years, resting on its laurels until it felt a threat from the Club? Both the Society and Club are within their rights to propose anything concerning ownership and inward investment, and perhaps it's just that the latter got its finger out first. I am a monthly paying Society member and have been for a long time, but there are so many other unanswered questions and points of speculation to be had from both sides, which has me questioning what's going on behind the scenes. This whole thread is becoming a tit-for-tat nonsense. Keep it up, everyone. I agree with an awful lot of what you say. I think the Society has maybe been complacent, to put it politely. However, I'm mindful that they have been operating during extremely challenging times of late and I'm not about to start criticising those who have volunteered their time and unquestionably give their all to the cause. That doesn't mean, however, those with some fresh ideas could't provide some much needed impetuous and from what I'm reading signs are very encouraging. Regarding the discussion I don't see much wrong with what has been posted in this thread and there are more than two sides to this story. I do agree however it looks like it is set to become a polarising issue and that's no good for anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 23 minutes ago, Pepper said: I agree with an awful lot of what you say. I think the Society has maybe been complacent, to put it politely. However, I'm mindful that they have been operating during extremely challenging times of late and I'm not about to start criticising those who have volunteered their time and unquestionably give their all to the cause. That doesn't mean, however, those with some fresh ideas could't provide some much needed impetuous and from what I'm reading signs are very encouraging. Regarding the discussion I don't see much wrong with what has been posted in this thread and there are more than two sides to this story. I do agree however it looks like it is set to become a polarising issue and that's no good for anyone. Yep, I agree. I daren't criticise anyone who gives their time to the cause either, but as a paying member, I am happy to question/criticise the Society as an entity. I'm looking forward to whatever proposals come forward, from all parties, as I'm not one to make up my mind without a full view of all the detail. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 55 minutes ago, wellfan said: Maybe, but why should it have taken until now for the Society to up its game? Why wasn't the Society actively examining and proposing meaningful ways to increase the membership and raise further inward investment? Why has it taken until now for the Society to confirm that 3800 members don't correlate with 3800 active monthly direct debits? Has the Society been in cruise control for many years, resting on its laurels until it felt a threat from the Club? Those are the questions members could raise at every Society meeting and/or directly with the Society Board. As far as I'm aware, the vast majority of members did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 4 minutes ago, weeyin said: Those are the questions members could raise at every Society meeting and/or directly with the Society Board. As far as I'm aware, the vast majority of members did not. You're not wrong, but I never have time to attend these events, otherwise I would raise such points in a public meeting. Furthermore, from the meetings I’ve attended online, a lot of time seems to be taken up by certain individuals with axes to grind, rather than having a focus on positive change. It's tiresome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 38 minutes ago, Pepper said: I agree with an awful lot of what you say. I think the Society has maybe been complacent, to put it politely. However, I'm mindful that they have been operating during extremely challenging times of late and I'm not about to start criticising those who have volunteered their time and unquestionably give their all to the cause. That doesn't mean, however, those with some fresh ideas could't provide some much needed impetuous and from what I'm reading signs are very encouraging. Regarding the discussion I don't see much wrong with what has been posted in this thread and there are more than two sides to this story. I do agree however it looks like it is set to become a polarising issue and that's no good for anyone. As far as I'm aware there should not be any sides to any story. No Motherwell fan should know details of any proposal before other fans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 I hope we find out details soon so that people can comment/discuss on factual information. As someone mentioned earlier the discussion seems to be going around in circles. Additionally, speaking as captain obvious, it would be good to have this sorted out in time to know our resources/budget for building up the squad for next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, steelboy said: I explained that the deal looks like it is to get majority control essentially for free. It's the equivalent of buying a £20 quid note for a fiver. That's why us. How does he achieve that if the Society members say no to giving up their majority holding? Are you saying that McMahon has the power to hand the club over irrespective of what the members say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 3 hours ago, wellgirl said: So fans can't have less than 50 per cent share of a club? If fan ownership was working Motherwell wouldn't be looking for outside investment. Of course they can. But whats the point? If you want to remain a shareholder you can buy an ordinary share. The purpose of the Society was to deliver a fan owned club. And it suceeded in that regard. If the club is no longer fan owned, the reason for the Society no longer exists. I will simply stop my direct debit and put money into the club some other way of my choosing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 10 minutes ago, dennyc said: How does he achieve that if the Society members say no to giving up their majority holding? Are you saying that McMahon has the power to hand the club over irrespective of what the members say. No the Society members have to vote in favour but that's obviously part of their plan. If the members say no it's dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 2 hours ago, wellfan said: Maybe, but why should it have taken until now for the Society to up its game? Why wasn't the Society actively examining and proposing meaningful ways to increase the membership and raise further inward investment? Why has it taken until now for the Society to confirm that 3800 members don't correlate with 3800 active monthly direct debits? Has the Society been in cruise control for many years, resting on its laurels until it felt a threat from the Club? Because the people that were elected to the WS Board were happy to allow the executive board to keep the Society at arms length. Thats no longer the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 2 hours ago, wellgirl said: As other people have said - where are the Well society going to find other money from? Unless there are cash reserves somewhere. I know it's possible that they could ask for extra donations from members. My whole issue with fan ownership is that there simply aren't enough members to make it work. No more than that - and I'm a member. By exploring other revenue streams not currently being tapped. No different than the investor who is looking for control of the club. The money he intends to invest wont be free. He wants it back with interest. So he will have to find ways of getting more money into the club. Otherwise he and we dont make any more money. The advantage he has at the moment is that he comes from a corporate background and clearly has experience in that field. That doesnt mean to say that there arent smart peoplenon the WS Board noe though with ideas of their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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