StAndrew7 Posted May 31 Report Share Posted May 31 6 hours ago, David said: No, I think most fans would be interested in investment. However, what we're often discussing isn't true investment. Instead, most fans are talking about someone giving us money to spend on players we can't really afford. If someone is serious about investing, they need to clearly state how much they plan to invest and show exactly how they expect to get a return on that investment. That's the key aspect for me. By definition, an investment must provide a tangible return for the investor. What I find concerning is the lack of specificity in the proposals we've seen so far. For instance, the individual we've been linked with seems to rely on vague terms like 'narratives ', 'connecting dots ', 'TikTok ', 'building value ', and 'passion '. These are industry buzzwords that don't provide a clear plan of action. I hope I'm wrong and that we get something solid from this guy, but if I had to guess, I'd say we're not going to get a straight answer about his plans. If he were a serious investor, his answer to the BBC and any other media outfit contacting him about the potential deal would have been "no comment." shialabeoufrapturousapplause.gif You're spot on; the definition/understanding of "investment" in a football club has been overtaken by what's happened at Wrexham, other clubs down south and across Europe. I agree that I think most fans would be interested in investment but it very, very much depends on what that all entails. We already know anything EB is going to propose isn't going to be transformational, so I think people need to realise we're not going to go out and sign every free agent we're linked with because there's an American investing £500k (or whatever) a season over the next few years. On your last two points, I think the BBC interview came as a result of all the speculation and the club releasing its statement on exclusivity. I imagine it was more of a taster of his plans rather than concretely laying them all out because negotiations were in their (relative) infancy; it was what, 8 weeks ago now? Longer? Like you, I'm anticipating/hoping for a comprehensive business plan/investor pack to be provided if and when the time comes for a vote on his proposal, with an exact timeline of his investment and when and where funds will come from (with particular emphasis on the where because if it's anything other than cold hard cash that's an immediate red flag). If we don't get that, how can we be expected to make an informed decision on any proposal(s)? Anyway, back to transfer rumours; Kofi Balmer, anyone? Someone on P&B saying we've had a bid knocked back and, I know this may shock people, St Mirren are also interested in him. Also that we've lost out on 3 keepers so far, so perhaps that Brentford lad was on the radar, after all! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted May 31 Author Report Share Posted May 31 Maybe I've missed something but I'm unsure what we, as fans, Society members or shareholders, are going to get. I appreciate that these groups are not mutually exclusive and these groups will be consulted with in slightly different ways. However, I fall into all 3 categories, as will many of you. Are we going to receive the Society's proposal, irrespective of whether or not the external proposal is finalised? One thing is for sure, the status quo is now no longer an option. Maybe its just me, but I now detect a very slight shifting of opinion away from the "we might just have to accept our lot and we end up where we end up in the leagues" view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted May 31 Report Share Posted May 31 21 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said: Maybe I've missed something but I'm unsure what we, as fans, Society members or shareholders, are going to get. I appreciate that these groups are not mutually exclusive and these groups will be consulted with in slightly different ways. However, I fall into all 3 categories, as will many of you. Are we going to receive the Society's proposal, irrespective of whether or not the external proposal is finalised? One thing is for sure, the status quo is now no longer an option. Maybe its just me, but I now detect a very slight shifting of opinion away from the "we might just have to accept our lot and we end up where we end up in the leagues" view. Based purely on speculation and my (very limited) understanding of things, for those three groups: 1) Fans will get they get through whatever is released publicly; the general public isn't necessarily entitled to see details of any proposal that's under NDA/exclusivity agreements, I think? 2) Private shareholders will (at least) receive details on the share purchases, the associated value of investment, the resulting % stakes in the Club and source of funds evidence. I would imagine a business plan would be included in that to detail exactly what the investment is going to bring us (aside from some cash) and how EB will make his return. I would also hope for an understanding/proposal of how any shares can be brought back into the club/WS holding, should EB decide it's not for him after x/y/z years of buying in or not getting his expected ROI. 3) I would expect WS members will receive communication from the WS Board re: the investment, I can't see why this wouldn't be the same information as private shareholders will receive; I think other communications from the Board mentioned that they would provide their own position on the investment to the members, too? As for receiving the Society's own investment/re-invigoration proposal, surely that should be a thing, regardless of the potential outside investment? It's been discussed and mentioned enough that it should be published and shared, as far as I'm concerned. Like you say; otherwise we continue the way we are and there's a clear move away from fans to accept the status quo/potential to end up where we end up. I've banged the drum a lot to say that there's no reason a reinvigorated WS can't work alongside an external investor and I still believe that, although I accept it's very much cake and eating it. Maybe we should move this to the other thread? 😬 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted May 31 Report Share Posted May 31 13 hours ago, Kmcalpin said: One thing is for sure, the status quo is now no longer an option. This perspective always intrigues me. What is the status quo? From what I understand, the current approach is to live within our means, which we should always aim to do, regardless of any external financial support. It seems that we budget based on finishing in 10th place, without any significant cup runs, relying on television and gate revenue, supplemented by smaller income streams. If someone injects money into the club and the wage bill increases beyond our sustainable budget, we risk significant financial trouble. No business would operate by spending beyond its means, and football clubs should be no different. It's crucial to recognise the financial constraints of our limited fan base. We cannot rely on the volunteers of the Well Society board to magically generate more funds. This underscores the need for us to be even more responsible in our financial decisions. There are some opportunities to increase revenue, but there is no magic solution that will allow us to compete with teams backed by wealthy owners who spend beyond the club's actual means. It's important to learn from history. The overspending approach has historically led to problems, not just in other Scottish clubs, but even within our own. This should serve as a reminder of the necessity of financial responsibility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted May 31 Report Share Posted May 31 Hopefully there can be a balance found between living within our means and not going back to the days of overspending that saw us go into administration. I personally do think we need some kind of investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsterwood Posted May 31 Report Share Posted May 31 I personally think we need investment also. Considered but also showing some ambition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsterwood Posted May 31 Report Share Posted May 31 52 minutes ago, David said: This perspective always intrigues me. What is the status quo? From what I understand, the current approach is to live within our means, which we should always aim to do, regardless of any external financial support. It seems that we budget based on finishing in 10th place, without any significant cup runs, relying on television and gate revenue, supplemented by smaller income streams. If someone injects money into the club and the wage bill increases beyond our sustainable budget, we risk significant financial trouble. No business would operate by spending beyond its means, and football clubs should be no different. It's crucial to recognise the financial constraints of our limited fan base. We cannot rely on the volunteers of the Well Society board to magically generate more funds. This underscores the need for us to be even more responsible in our financial decisions. There are some opportunities to increase revenue, but there is no magic solution that will allow us to compete with teams backed by wealthy owners who spend beyond the club's actual means. It's important to learn from history. The overspending approach has historically led to problems, not just in other Scottish clubs, but even within our own. This should serve as a reminder of the necessity of financial responsibility. What you describe is very basic business model that you described. And yes a business must break even but the model can still be altered by more investment advertising and creative accounts/ agreements with higher sides for players. Change is needed if Motherwell are to reach next level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted May 31 Report Share Posted May 31 14 minutes ago, robsterwood said: Change is needed if Motherwell are to reach next level. We all know we're never going to compete with the likes of Hearts, Aberdeen and Hibs in terms of support and finances (current off-form seasons aside for the latter two). Realistically, I think the best we can hope for is regular mid-table football, occasionally getting into the top-6 and maybe the odd decent cup run. There will be seasons like we had in the early 2010s under McCall and under Robinson more recently where we get to cup finals and perform well in the league etc. but we're never going to be able to sustain that with a core fanbase of what, 4,500? External investment in the order of what we're anticipating this to be isn't going to be anywhere near enough to sustain a consistent level of top-6 performance or allow us to compete budgets wise with the three teams I've mentioned previously. So the question then, is, what do I/we/you expect from it to get us to the "next level"? I've seen this phrase used a number of times, now. I'm genuinely interested to where people think we need to go and what you would define the "next level" as? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted May 31 Author Report Share Posted May 31 10 hours ago, David said: What is the status quo? From what I understand, the current approach is to live within our means, which we should always aim to do, regardless of any external financial support........It seems that we budget based on finishing in 10th place, without any significant cup runs, relying on television and gate revenue, supplemented by smaller income streams......It's crucial to recognise the financial constraints of our limited fan base. We cannot rely on the volunteers of the Well Society board to magically generate more funds. The cause of uncertainty on your part is down to my use of loose terminology, for which I apologise. I agree 100% about not living beyond our means. The status quo, if you like, is not radically increasing our expenditure AND income (it must be in balance of course). Football is a cutthroat, competitive business and our ability to finish 10th in the league, is not just dependent on what we do but is also dependent on what our close rivals do. If they increase their spending, recklessly or otherwise, then that makes it harder for us to finish 10th, or stand still if you like. More clubs of a similar size to us are spending more cash, whether they have it or not. We're starting to see other clubs up their spending too eg Raith Rovers. Clubs like Dunfermline and Falkirk will also be looking on closely. So, in short, if we want to spend more, just to stand still (mid table football is probably the best we can aspire to as StAndrew7 rightly points out) then we have to increase our income or investment, but only in a prudent manner. Basically, what Jim McMahon and Derek Weir have said. My understanding is that the external investment proposal is not "transformational" so lets put that to bed. In that regard, I'm not writing off the "volunteers" of the Society Board until I see what they can conjure up in terms of their proposal. In short, to me the status quo is doing nothing diferent to what we're doing at the moment i.e. using the same model and not seeking to increase "investment" in the club. . I hope that answers your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 Asking the support for more money and making Jon Obika a coach at the same time because he's a 'nice guy' is something that can't happen. Before the Well Society go to the members for more financial support the people in control of budgets at the club should be made to justify their expenditure. It only seems to go one way at the moment. If we are so skint then do preseason here as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 23 minutes ago, steelboy said: Asking the support for more money and making Jon Obika a coach at the same time because he's a 'nice guy' is something that can't happen. Before the Well Society go to the members for more financial support the people in control of budgets at the club should be made to justify their expenditure. It only seems to go one way at the moment. If we are so skint then do preseason here as well. Who said Jon Obika had been made a coach because he's a nice guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 32 minutes ago, steelboy said: Asking the support for more money and making Jon Obika a coach at the same time because he's a 'nice guy' is something that can't happen. Before the Well Society go to the members for more financial support the people in control of budgets at the club should be made to justify their expenditure. It only seems to go one way at the moment. If we are so skint then do preseason here as well. No one has asked the support for more money - and no one is obligated to give either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 My view of the ‘status quo’ is we carry on as we are, continue to be outbid on Premiership level players by our peers, and soon enough we’ll find ourselves struggling to keep pace with those peers. That scenario will likely lead to an annual struggle to stay in the Premiership and with little much else to play for. Another point is that everything else in the world is so much more expensive now, and the only way to absorb that cost, let alone keep pace, is to seek more financial input/output than the ‘status quo’. That could be through external investment or the Well Society pulling its socks up. Otherwise, I think we’ll play ourselves into the Championship in a few years. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted June 1 Author Report Share Posted June 1 11 minutes ago, wellfan said: My view of the ‘status quo’ is we carry on as we are, continue to be outbid on Premiership level players by our peers, and soon enough we’ll find ourselves struggling to keep pace with those peers. That scenario will likely lead to an annual struggle to stay in the Premiership and with little much else to play for. Another point is that everything else in the world is so much more expensive now, and the only way to absorb that cost, let alone keep pace, is to seek more financial input/output than the ‘status quo’. That could be through external investment or the Well Society pulling its socks up. Otherwise, I think we’ll play ourselves into the Championship in a few years. Thats it in a nutshell. Good post. The football world moves on but we don't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cambo97 Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 1 hour ago, bobbybingo said: Who said Jon Obika had been made a coach because he's a nice guy? He's been injured for a while and I suspect he has been "trying his hand' at coaching and shown enough to get a coaching role. Maybe he's the one who has progressed Theo Bair and that's why he has been given the role but I don't expect that some posters will accept that as a possibility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 16 minutes ago, cambo97 said: He's been injured for a while and I suspect he has been "trying his hand' at coaching and shown enough to get a coaching role. Maybe he's the one who has progressed Theo Bair and that's why he has been given the role but I don't expect that some posters will accept that as a possibility. Improving Bair, would that be Obika passing on his vast knowledge of scoring loads of goals and top class striking techniques over the years, your right I'm not accepting that as a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 2 minutes ago, Spiderpig said: Improving Bair, would that be Obika passing on his vast knowledge of scoring loads of goals and top class striking techniques over the years, your right I'm not accepting that as a possibility. How many golf tournaments had Butch Harmon won when we was coaching Tiger Woods to multiple victories in the Majors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 2 hours ago, wellfan said: My view of the ‘status quo’ is we carry on as we are, continue to be outbid on Premiership level players by our peers, and soon enough we’ll find ourselves struggling to keep pace with those peers. Our wage bill is slightly smaller than Killie and bigger than all the other non city clubs. If we see getting outbid for anyone it's because we have already committed the majority of our budget to guys who are well past their best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 1 hour ago, Spiderpig said: Improving Bair, would that be Obika passing on his vast knowledge of scoring loads of goals and top class striking techniques over the years, your right I'm not accepting that as a possibility. So, which prolific goalscorer at Motherwell did pass on their vast knowledge and top class technique to Bair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0Neils40yarder Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 1 hour ago, Spiderpig said: Improving Bair, would that be Obika passing on his vast knowledge of scoring loads of goals and top class striking techniques over the years, your right I'm not accepting that as a possibility. Some of the best coaches in the world, were shite at their given sport. Take a look at Freddy Roach...his own boxing career pales into insignificance when stacked up against what he has achieved in coaching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 If any investment is not transformational I would use that money for structural improvements sustaining the club for the future. The playing side would be financed by what it can generate in gate receipts, sponsorships and prize money. Lifting the cost base of the team above what is affordable once the investor is gone would be problematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 2 minutes ago, ropy said: If any investment is not transformational I would use that money for structural improvements sustaining the club for the future. With the information made available so far, I actually thought that was the plan. Structural stability supporting a productive youth system. In time that brings an end to operational losses and eventually leads to a stronger club with improved onfieldf rewards. The 'fix' is not going to happen overnight. Only on here have I read anything about Barmack's funding being used to immediately improve the first eleven. 3 hours ago, wellfan said: My view of the ‘status quo’ is we carry on as we are, continue to be outbid on Premiership level players by our peers, and soon enough we’ll find ourselves struggling to keep pace with those peers. That scenario will likely lead to an annual struggle to stay in the Premiership and with little much else to play for. Another point is that everything else in the world is so much more expensive now, and the only way to absorb that cost, let alone keep pace, is to seek more financial input/output than the ‘status quo’. That could be through external investment or the Well Society pulling its socks up. Otherwise, I think we’ll play ourselves into the Championship in a few years. As for the Status Quo, I think this is pretty much spot on. The decline in quality over the years is already there for everyone to see. Other clubs have experienced similar issues, but it seems they have options available which we do not. I do believe the refreshed Society Board are trying to effect change and overcome the barriers they face. In reality that might not be enough though, making external support essential. On the correct terms of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 2 hours ago, dennyc said: The decline in quality over the years is already there for everyone to see. Other clubs have experienced similar issues, but it seems they have options available which we do not. They have had options, but it hasn't stopped many of them from being relegated anyway. Dundee, Dundee Utd, Killie, Hearts (for slightly different reasons), Hibs etc. So even those extra resources don't guarantee league safety, never mind better performances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 6 hours ago, wellfan said: My view of the ‘status quo’ is we carry on as we are, continue to be outbid on Premiership level players by our peers, and soon enough we’ll find ourselves struggling to keep pace with those peers. That scenario will likely lead to an annual struggle to stay in the Premiership and with little much else to play for. I'm not so sure that will be the case. I remember much despair when we were outbid for Van Veen in January. How did that play out? I remember when we were essentially priced out of the services of Tony Watt. How did that play out? There are clubs who have outbid and outspent us regularly and who have all tasted life outside the top division of Scotland. How many times have we dropped down a division in recent times? For me, it's more about being smarter in what we do. We need to implement better strategies for recruitment, both on the playing and coaching side. We need to be finding those players who are on their way up before other teams around us even know who they are. For the above, we don't really need a sizeable injection of funds. In my opinion, we are fortunate to have a manager in place who is a superior coach compared to some of the teams around us, despite what some of our fans may say. He's managed to extract far more from certain players than other coaches have been able to. An example would be Van Veen. Are we to believe he's suddenly regressed to the point where he's of no use to a side like Kilmarnock? Or, was it the case that we have a coach in place who knows how to get the best out of him? The same goes for Bair. There are ways we can increase the club's income without engaging in the kind of involvement we've seen mentioned (I refuse to call it investment until I see actual evidence that it falls within the parameters that make it worthy of that term), but it would take a fairly drastic change in the way the people in charge of the club think and do things. As we've seen elsewhere in our game, when you have the same old way of thinking, no amount of "investment" is going to really make any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 53 minutes ago, weeyin said: They have had options, but it hasn't stopped many of them from being relegated anyway. Dundee, Dundee Utd, Killie, Hearts (for slightly different reasons), Hibs etc. So even those extra resources don't guarantee league safety, never mind better performances. Nobody is saying it does. But it helps them to bounce back if demotion happens. Wonder how we would have done in the situation they found themselves in. Hopefully we will never know. What we need is longer term stability. Having been in the top League for ages will be little comfort if we crash and burn. Other teams are moving forward. Hopefully any investment we secure can help us to extend our superb record, and at the same time enable us to react if the need arises, without losing our status. History is exactly that. Bask in it all you like, but we need to look forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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