steelboy Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 Barmack can say whatever he wants now but if he genuinely believed that a deal which would see the Well Society give up at least £2.8m in assets and gain nothing in return wasn't going to receive huge push back then he has very bad judgement. He was asked on P&B if he would accept a similar proposal for the company he owns..... And no reply was given for obvious reasons. That's a deal for mugs like us, not people like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 Just now, Peter Millar said: Hibs own Easter Road which is a significant piece of land close to the City Centre with a huge value for housing or commercial development. In addition they also own a 94 acre training centre in Tranent, East Lothian. The total value of both is in the region of £24 million plus. McMahon explicitly said that they weren't taking land vaules into account with the valuation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Millar Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 2 minutes ago, steelboy said: McMahon explicitly said that they weren't taking land vaules into account with the valuation. However you try to view it Hibs are a much bigger club with a much bigger fan base, and access to a wider corporate landscape because of their location and other factors demonstrated by their recent £6 million pound external investment. They might make a pigs ear of their football performance but financially, at the moment, they blow us out of the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 An important post on P&B by Vietnam91 demonstrating how McMahon and Barmack have deliberately undervalued the club. First thing to ascertain, who derived this EV figure, you, McMahon or someone else? The Enterprise Value (EV) Formula = Market Cap + Total Debt (short and long term) − Cash & cash equivalents (liquid assets) The debt figure used should be net, not the gross, whoever did this sum did not include the liquid assets of the club (£3.59m). Our figures in reality are: £1.94m (short term) + £1.54m (long term) = £3.48m total debt minus £3.59m total assets (bank and debtors) = net debt of -£11k By not using the net debt figure they were able to undervalue the club by close to £4 million. This can't be put to a vote now and McMahon should be out on his arse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 47 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said: From Barmack's comments late last night on P&B, it very much seems like a lot of information that was supposed (?) to be fed back to him hasn't been, particularly feedback on it from the Society. I'm beginning to get more convinced that he's been led down the path by individuals on the Exec Board that this would go through and that it would all be fine etc. The ideal situation for me now is that this deal gets launched, the Exec Board are forced to resign and then the Society, along with Caldwell and the other remaining executives at the club reopen negotiations with Barmack. Agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 49 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said: Red lights began to flash for me some months ago, when the Society released a statement saying that it wasn't actively engaged in negotiations. I thought at the time "Why not, you should be as you are the club's major shareholder". It would now seem that lines of communication were not what they could have been with Erik Barmack. Irrespective of how its done, I think there's mileage in continuing negotiations, taking into account major concerns we have. Understatement I think. And agree. I wonder if they were prevented legally or just not invited into the discussions or thought it was best not to be involved. Potentially because we are fan owned and they have the majority share they wanted to remain neutral. Who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 19 minutes ago, steelboy said: An important post on P&B by Vietnam91 demonstrating how McMahon and Barmack have deliberately undervalued the club. First thing to ascertain, who derived this EV figure, you, McMahon or someone else? The Enterprise Value (EV) Formula = Market Cap + Total Debt (short and long term) − Cash & cash equivalents (liquid assets) The debt figure used should be net, not the gross, whoever did this sum did not include the liquid assets of the club (£3.59m). Our figures in reality are: £1.94m (short term) + £1.54m (long term) = £3.48m total debt minus £3.59m total assets (bank and debtors) = net debt of -£11k By not using the net debt figure they were able to undervalue the club by close to £4 million. This can't be put to a vote now and McMahon should be out on his arse. Yeah, Vietnam 91 has done some really good work on the sums of all of this, kudos. McMahon banged on at the AGM about making sure we had proper financial due diligence consultants appointed to run things; this clearly hasn't been done because he's now hung about far longer than I believe he said he would to force this through. This is on my list of questions to put to the Club about this "deal". I wouldn't be surprised if the valuation was basically put to Barmack based on the Exec Board doing some post-it note maths and his own people/accountants have gone "Erm, aye, that's fine" and rubbed their hands with glee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 30 minutes ago, Peter Millar said: However you try to view it Hibs are a much bigger club with a much bigger fan base, and access to a wider corporate landscape because of their location and other factors demonstrated by their recent £6 million pound external investment. They might make a pigs ear of their football performance but financially, at the moment, they blow us out of the water. There's no aspect of Hibs' business - crowds, turnover, player sales, commercial - which is 6x ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Millar Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 29 minutes ago, steelboy said: An important post on P&B by Vietnam91 demonstrating how McMahon and Barmack have deliberately undervalued the club. First thing to ascertain, who derived this EV figure, you, McMahon or someone else? The Enterprise Value (EV) Formula = Market Cap + Total Debt (short and long term) − Cash & cash equivalents (liquid assets) The debt figure used should be net, not the gross, whoever did this sum did not include the liquid assets of the club (£3.59m). Our figures in reality are: £1.94m (short term) + £1.54m (long term) = £3.48m total debt minus £3.59m total assets (bank and debtors) = net debt of -£11k By not using the net debt figure they were able to undervalue the club by close to £4 million. This can't be put to a vote now and McMahon should be out on his arse. If you can sell Motherwell for £11 million then you’re a better person than me but realistically, taking away the emotion, it’s not worth that and nobody is going to pay it. The flip side is if it is worth £11 million the Well Society Board need to significantly up their game. There’s nothing I’ve seen as a member that has convinced me they are fit for purpose in terms of directing a football club of this size and stature. Hopefully their plan will alleviate these concerns when it comes out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 2 minutes ago, Peter Millar said: If you can sell Motherwell for £11 million then you’re a better person than me but realistically, taking away the emotion, it’s not worth that and nobody is going to pay it. The flip side is if it is worth £11 million the Well Society Board need to significantly up their game. There’s nothing I’ve seen as a member that has convinced me they are fit for purpose in terms of directing a football club of this size and stature. Hopefully their plan will alleviate these concerns when it comes out. Do you think it will? Their plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 4 minutes ago, Peter Millar said: If you can sell Motherwell for £11 million Did anyone say £11m. £8m is more realistic. The crooked chairman has set it below £4m. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 Just now, wellgirl said: Do you think it will? Their plan? I don't think anyone can answer that until it's been launched, really. I've heard some snippets of what's been going on and I think it'll certainly be a well thought out and realistic plan for the Society to move forward, increase its input to the club and look to improve and support it financially. Whether or not that meets expectations of people is up to them. Unless one of the Board were to come on and discuss it at length but I think they've got their hands full trying to get it finalised right now, amongst other stuff that's going on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Millar Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 8 minutes ago, steelboy said: Did anyone say £11m. £8m is more realistic. The crooked chairman has set it below £4m. Apologies. I just took the £11 million from the earlier post. I still don’t think you could get £8 million for it, and my worries over the Well Society being able to direct an asset of this size still remain. in terms of Jim McMahon, as a company director he has a legal obligation to act in the best interests of the company which I am sure he feels he is doing - rightly, or wrongly. I’m not sure if ‘crooked’ is an apt descriptor for a lifelong Motherwell supporter who has dipped into his own pocket to ensure both you and I had a Motherwell team to watch on a Saturday. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 18 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said: I don't think anyone can answer that until it's been launched, really. I've heard some snippets of what's been going on and I think it'll certainly be a well thought out and realistic plan for the Society to move forward, increase its input to the club and look to improve and support it financially. Whether or not that meets expectations of people is up to them. Unless one of the Board were to come on and discuss it at length but I think they've got their hands full trying to get it finalised right now, amongst other stuff that's going on! I do think the society should post something on here if they have the time. Particularly in light of the comments made that the outside investment proposal was not supported by the Well Society board but not as strongly as in the statement they put out the other day. I also completely understand they are volunteers and busy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Millar Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 28 minutes ago, wellgirl said: Do you think it will? Their plan? I want it to….but i don’t think it will. There’s just not the skills or experience on the board. I say this with the greatest of respect and admiration for the current board. They’ve put themselves in a position to be shot at for the love of their club and that takes great courage and commitment. i honestly hope I’m proven wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 14 minutes ago, Peter Millar said: Apologies. I just took the £11 million from the earlier post. I still don’t think you could get £8 million for it, and my worries over the Well Society being able to direct an asset of this size still remain. in terms of Jim McMahon, as a company director he has a legal obligation to act in the best interests of the company which I am sure he feels he is doing - rightly, or wrongly. I’m not sure if ‘crooked’ is an apt descriptor for a lifelong Motherwell supporter who has dipped into his own pocket to ensure both you and I had a Motherwell team to watch on a Saturday. Hugely undervaluing the club isn't acting in the best wishes of the shareholders. What he has done before that is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well_said Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 28 minutes ago, Peter Millar said: Apologies. I just took the £11 million from the earlier post. I still don’t think you could get £8 million for it, and my worries over the Well Society being able to direct an asset of this size still remain. in terms of Jim McMahon, as a company director he has a legal obligation to act in the best interests of the company which I am sure he feels he is doing - rightly, or wrongly. I’m not sure if ‘crooked’ is an apt descriptor for a lifelong Motherwell supporter who has dipped into his own pocket to ensure both you and I had a Motherwell team to watch on a Saturday. Do you know of any occasions that you can share where he has provided his own money to enable us to play on a Saturday. The way he has behaved with regards to the barmack offer tells me otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 31 minutes ago, Peter Millar said: I want it to….but i don’t think it will. There’s just not the skills or experience on the board. What kind of skills? Skills like McMahon, Weir and Wilson where they managed to destroy Royal Bank Of Scotland and made every household in the country pay for it? The CEO is a professional who runs the club day to day. Our business is footballl, it's extremely straightforward and the primary income streams come via the SPFL, the SFA and UEFA. What we need in both boardrooms is honesty and intregrity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted June 12 Author Report Share Posted June 12 1 hour ago, StAndrew7 said: I've heard some snippets of what's been going on and I think it'll certainly be a well thought out and realistic plan for the Society to move forward, increase its input to the club and look to improve and support it financially. Isn't that, in many ways an alternative "investment" plan to Erik Barmack's? Granted its a very different model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 36 minutes ago, steelboy said: What kind of skills? Skills like McMahon, Weir and Wilson where they managed to destroy Royal Bank Of Scotland and made every household in the country pay for it? The CEO is a professional who runs the club day to day. Our business is footballl, it's extremely straightforward and the primary income streams come via the SPFL, the SFA and UEFA. What we need in both boardrooms is honesty and intregrity. What did they have to do with the Royal Bank of Scotland collapse? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 8 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said: Isn't that, in many ways an alternative "investment" plan to Erik Barmack's? Granted its a very different model. I guess it is and it isn't. I would imagine the Society won't be looking to increase their shareholding, for one. And to be fair to them, that's exactly what they said they'd propose, an alternative to the external investment. I can't see a reason why the Society might not discuss/propose reducing its shareholding to allow for investment in its plan, provided it doesn't dilute its holding below 51%. Ultimately that's helping safeguard the club whilst also sticking to the ethos of it being the majority shareholder. So, if that is indeed part of the plan, why not propose talking to Wild Sheep if/when this current offer is rejected? Well, the (now remaining) WS Board has kind of alluded to that in their statement on Monday. I think, ultimately that's the pipe dream. This current proposal goes, along with the Executive Board members backing it and we lick our collective wounds, sort out the club hierarchy and open negotiations with Erik again. I get the feeling he's willing to listen and understand viewpoints and debate things. Granted, he's basically on P&B trying to sell his deal to the fans (which is his perogative in this instance, ultimately this is the only deal that's on the table currently and works for him). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted June 12 Author Report Share Posted June 12 1 hour ago, Peter Millar said: I want it to….but i don’t think it will. There’s just not the skills or experience on the board. I say this with the greatest of respect and admiration for the current board. They’ve put themselves in a position to be shot at for the love of their club and that takes great courage and commitment. i honestly hope I’m proven wrong I think Spiderpig has raised broadly similar concerns and there may be some justification for that. The Society does need a broad mix of expertise and skills. As I said, the the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. We'll know more when the Society publishes its proposal. We need to give it a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 Just now, Kmcalpin said: I think Spiderpig has raised broadly similar concerns and there may be some justification for that. The Society does need a broad mix of expertise and skills. As I said, the the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. We'll know more when the Society publishes its proposal. We need to give it a chance. We do need to give it a chance but I think that members should be kept in the loop by them. All it takes is one email to send to members saying we are still working on our plan to maximise revenue. I personally haven't put the society under pressure. There's been no expectation from me that they go out and raise a couple of million pounds. But we are the people paying in to the society. I also realise that this alternative plan will take time to put together. But if they are telling fans to vote no to this deal because they don't think it's right for Motherwell then surely people at the club, not just the Well Society, other people as well let fans know their future plans for the club or if we just continue operating the way we do just now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 1 minute ago, wellgirl said: But if they are telling fans to vote no to this deal because they don't think it's right for Motherwell then surely people at the club, not just the Well Society, other people as well let fans know their future plans for the club or if we just continue operating the way we do just now. They have though, the Executive Board have backed this deal "unanimously", so that's their plan for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stv Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 1 hour ago, steelboy said: What kind of skills? Skills like McMahon, Weir and Wilson where they managed to destroy Royal Bank Of Scotland and made every household in the country pay for it? The CEO is a professional who runs the club day to day. Our business is footballl, it's extremely straightforward and the primary income streams come via the SPFL, the SFA and UEFA. What we need in both boardrooms is honesty and intregrity. . 2 hours ago, steelboy said: Did anyone say £11m. £8m is more realistic. The crooked chairman has set it below £4m. Hows about you get on the board or society. Then actually do something. I think you would not find it so easy to throw about negative and slanderous comments when you actually need to justify them to others. On the other hand your maybees just at the wynd up. 😏 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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