New Investment Options

[wellgirl]

2 hours ago, stv said:

You can't be serious Steelboy / Peter Miller would have him in tears and running for the hills after his first post

Hardly. This is the steelboy who thinks I've been running around all over the place trying to convince a bunch of complete strangers to vote for Erik's deal on the basis of absolutely nothing but his own over active imagination. 

🤣

(I haven't). 

[santheman]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

Thanks for that. We are not really that far apart.

If the WS take their rightful place, I see it as their role to appoint a club Board that has the the ability, willingness and drive to go out and seek external investment utilising their professional skills and contacts. Attributes that I do not see in the existing Board, bar perhaps the CEO whom I have high hopes for......... although that is a leap of faith to a degree.

Thereafter the Society Board should be involved in negotiations to ensure that a united, realistic proposal is presented to the fan base. And it should all take the time it takes, in contrast to the ridiculous urgency and fear that has been introduced to the present proposal in an attempt to bluster it through.

That is how it should work, but McMahon and Co would have us believe otherwise.

Not any east task I guess, but I live in hope.

 

I don't think we're apart at all.

We just want what's best for a club we've supported all our lives and want to see them improve on and off the park, if that requires external investment then it has to be on our terms.

In terms of a functioning Chairman of the Executive Board, yes it should be someone appointed by the majority shareholder or at the very least someone who shares the core values of the WS.

Whether there is someone currently on the WS board that would be willing to take on what is essentially an unpaid role and all the hassle that comes with it I don't know.

[wellgirl]

On 6/21/2024 at 6:14 PM, steelboy said:

You better hope they do or you will have wasted your time for months.

I have three of a family. My mum. My wee brother and me. My mum is a well society member and won't get a vote. My brother isn't a well society member but he's been supporting Motherwell for decades.

And I know no one in real life who supports Motherwell apart from my mum and brother. I have no one to persuade and I have never tried to persuade anyone on steelmenonline to vote for Erik's deal. Ends. I've done nothing "for months".  

I have no reason to want to persuade anyone to vote for this deal. (I'm not that invested believe it or not). How I vote is my business. It's absolutely not yours. 

I'll also just clarify while I'm here - that I posted for at least two years probably more after

I made this account, hundreds of posts, yet I was accused last week of joining here just to get people to vote for Erik. That's not the case.  I think I know better than you when I joined and how many posts I made back in the day. 

 If you're going to post this stuff on a forum anyone can read and make digs at me, publicly embarrass me and accuse me of stuff that isn't true, I've got the right of reply. 

You want people to engage on here? You allow all opinions or else it's just an echo chamber. 

And I suspect that's part of the problem. You don't like being disagreed with. 

 

 

[Peter Millar]

6 hours ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

What is it that is so wrong about Dalziel Park? Changing facilities could be improved but in the main, the training pitches are excellent

Excellent compared to what? Queen’s Park are developing better facilities, Aberdeen have built Cormack Park, Killie have just announced work on a new training facility, Hibs have 7 pitches and 90 plus acres at Tranent, Dundee are working with their Council to develop a site at Riverside, etc. Dalziel Park is a rudimentary facility and the lower pitch floods frequently.

[wunderwell]

I will repond to previous statements by @David and @dennyc

I disagree they have done a good job.

If you want to see a job well done by a group of volunteers - go here.

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/

The Well Society new board have done what to justify a good job so far? As I previously said updated everyones details and ran a collection at the games. Tea and biscuits bowling club mentality.

What do I want them to do?

1. Act on behalf of the fans. We are clearly not happy with the board. What can be done here?

2. Copy the formula of the volunteers at Hearts. Easy to find, they have a website that tells you everything.

3. Produce a statement about how we can raise more funds to help the club in future years, so that we can put this offer to bed.

You are again missing what I am saying by asking more questions about Eric Barmack.

All I said that he is acting, he's changed the heads of terms. I'm not here to talk about him. I am here to talk about how the club moves forwards with the Well Society which is the alternative to EB and the one that everyone is vested in.

 

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, wunderwell said:

I will repond to previous statements by @David and @dennyc

I disagree they have done a good job.

If you want to see a job well done by a group of volunteers - go here.

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/

The Well Society new board have done what to justify a good job so far? As I previously said updated everyones details and ran a collection at the games. Tea and biscuits bowling club mentality.

What do I want them to do?

1. Act on behalf of the fans. We are clearly not happy with the board. What can be done here?

2. Copy the formula of the volunteers at Hearts. Easy to find, they have a website that tells you everything.

3. Produce a statement about how we can raise more funds to help the club in future years, so that we can put this offer to bed.

You are again missing what I am saying by asking more questions about Eric Barmack.

All I said that he is acting, he's changed the heads of terms. I'm not here to talk about him. I am here to talk about how the club moves forwards with the Well Society which is the alternative to EB and the one that everyone is vested in.

 

Which part of the Well Society Board is producing a forthcoming business plan do you not understand? 

Give them a chance; the majority of the new board members are just in the door and have been fighting against the intransigence of the Executive Board and three of their own members for most of that time. 

Maybe it's worth keeping your powder dry until you see the output of the job they're currently undertaking. Just a thought. 

[wunderwell]

6 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Which part of the Well Society Board is producing a forthcoming business plan do you not understand? 

Give them a chance; the majority of the new board members are just in the door and have been fighting against the intransigence of the Executive Board and three of their own members for most of that time. 

Maybe it's worth keeping your powder dry until you see the output of the job they're currently undertaking. Just a thought. 

I'll quite happily not keep my powder dry. Same as your rhetoric about Kettlewell.
It's a forum and your opinion differs from mine.

A forthcoming plan driven from a needs be process.

We all want it to be good. I am saying thus far I think the WS are not a patch of the Foundation of Hearts. Do you disagree?

My attack is on the Well Society as a whole. That includes the 3 members obviously that you speak of who have held it back.

[wunderwell]

12 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Which part of the Well Society Board is producing a forthcoming business plan do you not understand? 

Give them a chance; the majority of the new board members are just in the door and have been fighting against the intransigence of the Executive Board and three of their own members for most of that time. 

Maybe it's worth keeping your powder dry until you see the output of the job they're currently undertaking. Just a thought. 

Did the board and these three members stop them from building a website in 13 years?

[wellfan]

10 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

I'll quite happily not keep my powder dry. Same as your rhetoric about Kettlewell.
It's a forum and your opinion differs from mine.

A forthcoming plan driven from a needs be process.

We all want it to be good. I am saying thus far I think the WS are not a patch of the Foundation of Hearts. Do you disagree?

My attack is on the Well Society as a whole. That includes the 3 members obviously that you speak of who have held it back.

I think you should just join the Foundation of Hearts.  

8 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

Did the board and these three members stop them from building a website in 13 years?

Dunno. I also don't know what their favourite foods are. 

[wunderwell]

3 minutes ago, wellfan said:

I think you should just join the Foundation of Hearts.  

Dunno. I also don't know what their favourite foods are. 

What a comeback. Ran out of answers pal?
 

[Mintymac]

This whole investment business has exposed a lot of disfuntion between exec board and WS .

This for me has been the biggest disappointment to come out of this wholly undignified negotiation.

I said in a previous post that EB coming on to fans forum is very unprofessional. 
Yes by him doing so it’s exposed his proposition and not necessarily to his advantage, but why can any correspondence not be done via emails etc . 
What other professional business conducts  itself like this ?. 

Maybe I’m old school and this is the new way /new normal of doing things in the name of transparency etc etc but I’ve found it cringey.

Finally I’m actually not sure who I’m most disappointed with 

The exec board is right up there near the top but wtf have the WS being doing since it’s inception while taking our direct debits for years . 
No reflection on the incoming guys but what about the rest . Massively disappointed how it’s been previously mismanaged .

To end on a more positive note I’m hopeful the WS proposals have got a serious plan . No point rushing this it has to be credible so take your time and get this right .

Re Eric 

Well was happy to have investment on board but imo it’s so tarnished that even if it did go through now it’s going to be met with a lot of scepticism. 
Time he walked away and we pick up the pieces when he’s gone . 

It’ll take time to fix but if anything it’s at least exposed the problems at the club which need to be corrected so we can move forward as one 

 

 

[wellfan]

21 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

What a comeback. Ran out of answers pal?
 

No, I just can't be arsed debating with someone hellbent on not giving the new Well Society board members a chance to produce their forthcoming business plan. You've already made up your mind about the new WS board, as I've done with Kettlewell, so that'll be that then. 

[wellfan]

24 minutes ago, Mintymac said:

The exec board is right up there near the top but wtf have the WS being doing since it’s inception while taking our direct debits for years . 
No reflection on the incoming guys but what about the rest . Massively disappointed how it’s been previously mismanaged .

That is a fair point, which I generally agree with. I've said elsewhere that the WS seem to have been resting on their laurels for years, not understanding the members or being able to quantify who does and does not financially contribute, etc. And now the WS Board has to react against adversity through no fault of the new generation of members. However, I see this situation as being down to the previous WS Board and their remit/(in)ability/constraints. Now, I look at the current WS Board as a new generation, which will hopefully get things right moving forward with a fresh slate, but it won't happen overnight. It's theirs to lose. 

[StAndrew7]

Just now, wellfan said:

That is a fair point, which I generally agree with. I've said elsewhere that the WS seem to have been resting on their laurels for years, not understanding the members or being able to quantify who does and does not financially contribute, etc. And now the WS Board has to react against adversity through no fault of the new generation of members. However, I see this situation as being down to the previous WS Board and their remit/(in)ability/constraints. Now, I look at the current WS Board as a new generation, which will hopefully get things right moving forward with a fresh slate, but it won't happen overnight. It's theirs to lose. 

Was about to say much of the same.

Expecting a rejuvenated WS Board to come in and change anywhere from 5-10+ years of what appears to have been stagnation or potentially downright mismanagement under the watch of the previous incumbents, coupled with what seemingly had been a Yes sir/no sir/three bags full etc. relationship with the Chairman in less than a year isn't fair.

As for the business plan being a result of the situation we're now in, that's not entirely accurate. My understanding is that it was already under development/in its initial stages before Christmas and has since picked up as significant a pace as it can with the time constraints the board have, based on the short notice of facto the original HoT being delivered to them.

I agree some things can/could have been done quicker (the standalone website being a good example of that) but to write the board off before there's been any chance to present anything isn't fair, but as always, each to their own opinion etc.

I think the Foundation of Hearts is the kind of structure in terms of comms, presence etc. is what we should be aiming for, personally. Its size and stature is unrealistic for us, purely based on the funds they have available to them from one or two individuals and the size of the Hearts fanbase.

All this shows to me is just how broken our "fan ownership" model has become, as a result of the Les investment and subsequent sale changing the original plans and so on. There's a catalogue of errors and issues that go back much further than the current WS board.

[wunderwell]

30 minutes ago, wellfan said:

No, I just can't be arsed debating with someone hellbent on not giving the new Well Society board members a chance to produce their forthcoming business plan. You've already made up your mind about the new WS board, as I've done with Kettlewell, so that'll be that then. 

Fair enough.
It's up to the WS and Kettlewell to prove us wrong!

[wellfan]

Just now, wunderwell said:

Fair enough.
It's up to the WS and Kettlewell to prove us wrong!

Let's hope we're both proven wrong. 

[weeyin]

The WS has thousands of members. If they (we) haven't been happy with what the Board has been doing we could have changed things.

The simplest way do to that was to vote out people you didn't think were doing a good job. I took that line at the last couple of elections, but there were obviously plenty who were happy and have voted for the same faces.

[dennyc]

2 hours ago, wunderwell said:

I will repond to previous statements by @David and @dennyc

I disagree they have done a good job.

If you want to see a job well done by a group of volunteers - go here.

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/

The Well Society new board have done what to justify a good job so far? As I previously said updated everyones details and ran a collection at the games. Tea and biscuits bowling club mentality.

What do I want them to do?

1. Act on behalf of the fans. We are clearly not happy with the board. What can be done here?

2. Copy the formula of the volunteers at Hearts. Easy to find, they have a website that tells you everything.

3. Produce a statement about how we can raise more funds to help the club in future years, so that we can put this offer to bed.

You are again missing what I am saying by asking more questions about Eric Barmack.

All I said that he is acting, he's changed the heads of terms. I'm not here to talk about him. I am here to talk about how the club moves forwards with the Well Society which is the alternative to EB and the one that everyone is vested in.

 

Thanks for your response.

I agree that the WS could learn lessons from the Hearts set up. Particularly with regard to a web site which is clearly a particular gripe of yours. No doubt there is other best practice to have a look at. So, yes, have a look at them for ideas. I also agree the Society could be and should have been more forceful given their standing as majority share holders.

But where your comparison falls flat is the part played by the respective Club Boards. That is a massive factor.

At Hearts, and whether folk like or loathe Anne Budge, we have a Board and former Board Members who respect their fan group, work with and support them for the benefit of both parties, and ultimately Hearts. I get the impression there is an open door policy whereby the fan group can call upon the expertise of the club when appropriate. And there will be differences of opinion at times, but I think that is natural and healthy.

Also the Hearts executive have brought in literally millions to the Club via their contacts, business acumen and knowledge of the Club's fan base locally and worldwide. As recently as a month or so ago a couple of new initiatives were announced. £2m I seem to recall. Hearts appear to have learned lessons from the disaster that befell them and brought about the creation of the Hearts Foundation.

Turning to Motherwell we have the exact opposite. We have a Board who resent the WS and certainly show them and their position as majority shareholders no respect. Plenty of examples of that with the discussions and negotiations surrounding this proposal from Barmack a classic example. A proposal that would ultimately bankrupt the Society and remove all power. The Society has been deliberately sidelined and ignored. Regarded simply as a Bank to be raided for whatever purpose the Club Board saw fit, aided by two or three Society Board Members whose loyalties and intentions are far from clear. Who come across as puppets of the Club Chairman.

Through their influence the role of the Society diminished year on year until such time as the Society Board changed. At which point the worm turned, although not fast enough for some,  fighting for your rights as a Motherwell fan and striving to return to what was originally established. It takes time although some progress has been made, otherwise we would not be having this debate.

Regards sourcing external finance, exactly how much has the current Chairman and the Board brought in over recent years? Or ever. I would suggest the Society you hold in such poor regard has brought in far more through fans' subscriptions/donations alone. Not bad for a bunch of amateurs. Compare that to Hearts. Instead our Board have relied upon the Society to fund gaps and now Mr McMahon is attempting to sell the myth that it is the role of a bunch of volunteers to come up with a solution. As I said earlier, to do his job for him.  And sadly some appear to have been fooled by his diversion strategy. 

So by all means compare the Well Society to the Foundation of Hearts. But please include the whole picture. It is not as simple as walking in and sacking the existing Club Board, even if the Society wanted to and has those powers.We need to retain some semblance of stability as the Club transitions to the new set up I believe you, me and most others are hoping for. 

 

 

[wunderwell]

17 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Thanks for your response.

I agree that the WS could learn lessons from the Hearts set up. Particularly with regard to a web site which is clearly a particular gripe of yours. No doubt there is other best practice to have a look at. So, yes, have a look at them for ideas. I also agree the Society could be and should have been more forceful given their standing as majority share holders.

But where your comparison falls flat is the part played by the respective Club Boards. That is a massive factor.

At Hearts, and whether folk like or loathe Anne Budge, we have a Board and former Board Members who respect their fan group, work with and support them for the benefit of both parties, and ultimately Hearts. I get the impression there is an open door policy whereby the fan group can call upon the expertise of the club when appropriate. And there will be differences of opinion at times, but I think that is natural and healthy.

Also the Hearts executive have brought in literally millions to the Club via their contacts, business acumen and knowledge of the Club's fan base locally and worldwide. As recently as a month or so ago a couple of new initiatives were announced. £2m I seem to recall. Hearts appear to have learned lessons from the disaster that befell them and brought about the creation of the Hearts Foundation.

Turning to Motherwell we have the exact opposite. We have a Board who resent the WS and certainly show them and their position as majority shareholders no respect. Plenty of examples of that with the discussions and negotiations surrounding this proposal from Barmack a classic example. A proposal that would ultimately bankrupt the Society and remove all power. The Society has been deliberately sidelined and ignored. Regarded simply as a Bank to be raided for whatever purpose the Club Board saw fit, aided by two or three Society Board Members whose loyalties and intentions are far from clear. Who come across as puppets of the Club Chairman.

Through their influence the role of the Society diminished year on year until such time as the Society Board changed. At which point the worm turned, although not fast enough for some,  fighting for your rights as a Motherwell fan and striving to return to what was originally established. It takes time although some progress has been made, otherwise we would not be having this debate.

Regards sourcing external finance, exactly how much has the current Chairman and the Board brought in over recent years? Or ever. I would suggest the Society you hold in such poor regard has brought in far more through fans' subscriptions/donations alone. Not bad for a bunch of amateurs. Compare that to Hearts. Instead our Board have relied upon the Society to fund gaps and now Mr McMahon is attempting to sell the myth that it is the role of a bunch of volunteers to come up with a solution. As I said earlier, to do his job for him.  And sadly some appear to have been fooled by his diversion strategy. 

So by all means compare the Well Society to the Foundation of Hearts. But please include the whole picture. It is not as simple as walking in and sacking the existing Club Board, even if the Society wanted to and has those powers.We need to retain some semblance of stability as the Club transitions to the new set up I believe you, me and most others are hoping for. 

 

 

Cheers @dennyc for the well thought and constructed reply to my comments, appreciated.
There is no doubt differences to Hearts, you are correct and good to point those out. I have nothing to argue in relation to what you have said.
I hope the WS upcoming update can push it forward to where we all want it to be.
I am really critical of the past but there is a real chance now to improve.

 

[dennyc]

4 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

Cheers @dennyc for the well thought and constructed reply to my comments, appreciated.
There is no doubt differences to Hearts, you are correct and good to point those out. I have nothing to argue in relation to what you have said.
I hope the WS upcoming update can push it forward to where we all want it to be.
I am really critical of the past but there is a real chance now to improve.

 

Appreciated. At the end of the day we all want what is best for our football club.

[GawnUpBy?]

In regards to folks previous comments regarding a website. I’ve spoken with one of the newly elected members of the WS Board and raised my concerns about this and they assured me that’s another thing that’s been worked on and is almost ready to launch. 
 

I went on to the official website to try and find something with the society and nothing is clear in the menu. 
 

“Become a member” is the option to use. Become a member of what though? 
 

I’m in full agreement with many that the Society hasn’t done enough since its inception. I had even stopped my payments until early this year. I have full faith in the new board members to deliver a solid future for the WS, but they need time to deliver it. 

[dennyc]

Borrowed from P&B with Vietnam91's permission.

I wanted to post it because I have an EMail from the Club Board received a few days ago advising that any income from the new/revised domestic deals cannot be taken into consideration when looking to the season ahead/valuations. Because those figures cannot be quantified. The Board really are playing a nasty game here. Operation Misinformation is alive and running

The Uefa uplift is also public knowledge but it is the ignoring of 'Scottish' income uplift I find most insulting to us fans. 

Fuller details on Pie and Bovril for anybody who cares to have a look.

 

 

 

Remember all the doom and gloom in the clubs detailed statement? Seemed not to mention any of the good stuff coming our way, like if we finish in 9th again we're looking at an £808k improvement. Quite an attractive prospect for an investor, especially when removing £434k of benign debt for a "clean" balance sheet is insisted upon. Overnight the league and Motherwell becomes more much more attractive.

Nobody buy into any feigned surprise or ignorance to these facts.

Here's the inconvenient numbers:

SPFL

League Sponsor changing from Cinch £1.6m per season to William Hill £2m per season, covered here: League Sponsor Announcement

Sky Extension and uplift from £25m per season to £30m per season with an additional £4m options to cover more games, covered here: Sky Increase to £150m over 5 years

Premier Sports announce 20 games per season for 8 figures (£10m?), covered here: Premier Sports 20 games per season

So total prize pot rising based on press by 58% above this season (or 73% if the Sky option is taken up).

Percentages defined here (2018 but still the same): Percentage breakdown for final league placing, all 4 divisions, 42 clubs

 

UEFA

Then throw into the mix that for the next three seasons (club says 2) due to our league winner getting automatic CL qualification a 80% uplift on the solidarity payments (min £650k per season). If the 2nd place team do it through the qualifiers then it is estimated to be over £1.1m, (this is behind a paywall, why there's no link):

[steelboy]

Aye I heard Doncaster on the radio bragging about the increased UEFA money before the final game of the season.

[Electric Blues]

14 minutes ago, dennyc said:

I have an EMail from the Club Board received a few days ago advising that any income from the new/revised domestic deals cannot be taken into consideration when looking to the season ahead/valuations. Because those figures cannot be quantified. The Board really are playing a nasty game here. Operation Misinformation is alive and running

Duplicitious twunts, or merely incompetent?

The Well Society may have fallen a bit short of expectations at times, but they are paragons of virtue compared to the Board.

[wellfan]

10 minutes ago, Electric Blues said:

Duplicitious twunts, or merely incompetent?

Crooks.