Motherwell v Aberdeen 16/03/2024

[Spiderpig]

50 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

VAR - hands up for those who think it's enhanced the game. ???................

Given the clubs are funding this, it would be reasonable for them to vote on whether it stays, goes or changes.  If changes it would have to be used sparingly for obvious errors only, and frankly offers very little value. 

Other than giving us something else to moan and groan about I don't see any tangible value.
 

If VAR was used for its original intended purpose, ie clear and obvious errors in the build up to goals, the technology was the best available and the VAR officials were fully trained and competent then it could be a very useful aid to referees etc. This along with full disclosure after the game on the reasons for decisions made, referees being allowed to explain the reasoning etc, would improve the game and fan experience.

However what we got in Scotland was a hastily cobbled together shambles of suspect technology, inconsistent application of the laws of the game, poorly trained officials and a culture of secrecy with no explanations or censure for blatantly bad decisions. So until the SFA admits it made a James Hunt of it and starts again to ensure its implemented and operated as it should be it will continue to ruin the game and fan experience, this of course assumes the SFA will take effective action but as we all know that won't happen, they have more important things to organise, ie the expenses paid freebies to Germany in the Summer for all the committee members.

[Kmcalpin]

7 hours ago, wellgirl said:

Yes. There was a list online a couple of months ago showing decisions given that were later shown that shouldn't have stood for all the spl clubs. Think two penalties for us. 

There was indeed. One that was mentioned was a decision to rule out a Hearts goal at Tynecastle. Its also important to note that the scope of the "review" was limited to decisions made, not those that were missed. The list was a sample and as such "hand picked". There was no mention, for example, of the last minute penalty claim against Aberdeen which was missed because the cameras were switched off before the end of the game. I would take that list with a spoonful of salt.

[santheman]

As much as the inconsistencies in interpreting the rules annoys me it's the time it takes that really boils my piss. I know both things are interlinked and sometimes a decision isn't always as clear cut as it seems but by christ a 3/4 minute lull in the game kills the atmosphere stone dead. More annoying if you're in the ascendancy at the time and you lose any momentum you have and yes, I realise that can work both ways but still shite from a spectators point of view.

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

As much as the inconsistencies in interpreting the rules annoys me it's the time it takes that really boils my piss.

If it takes longer than 30 seconds to identify a clear and obvious error via VAR, then it's not a clear and obvious error and play should continue. It's that simple, but the twats in the video booth are intent on re-refereeing games to justify their stolen wage and fuel their self-important incompetence. 

[dennyc]

What needs to be addressed is that two of our most experienced officials either do not know the Laws of the game or chose to ignore them. Both options are shocking.  Yes, the time taken is nonsense. Yes, all teams have benefited or lost out at times,us included. But the arrogant refusal by the Authorities to address incompetence (at best) is an insult to every single fan who pays hard earned money to support football. Ourselves, Hearts, Hibs, St Mirren, St Johnstone have all suffered decisions that go way beyond simple human error or interpretation. But nothing changes. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

6 hours ago, santheman said:

As much as the inconsistencies in interpreting the rules annoys me it's the time it takes that really boils my piss. I know both things are interlinked and sometimes a decision isn't always as clear cut as it seems but by christ a 3/4 minute lull in the game kills the atmosphere stone dead. More annoying if you're in the ascendancy at the time and you lose any momentum you have and yes, I realise that can work both ways but still shite from a spectators point of view.

If it take 3/4 minutes to decide,  its not a clear and obvious error the decision should stand. They should have 90 seconds to review any incident if they cant make the call by the 90 second mark the original decision stands.

[MJC]

The club have released a statement “seeking an explanation from the SFA on a number of refereeing decisions”.

[bobbybingo]

The decision was deliberate handball. Utter bollocks.

[steelman1991]

I smell shit - that's bollocks.

[dennyc]

As we all knew it would be. A cover up and no accountability. 

[Stuwell2]

I don’t like the time it takes to make a decision but if they have to review 3 or 4 cameras then recheck to confirm things to avoid mistakes then - no matter how pissed off I feel I can accept that - BUT to take so long and then make the wrong decision is incompetence and that should get them removed from the job. 

The thing is tv footage can be reviewed anywhere so why not have foreign retired refs (who have no affiliation to the incompetent clique we have or Scottish clubs) do the review’s. Mistakes will probably still be made but we would know that they were honest mistakes. 
 

[Toxteth O'Grady]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqln4xjp82xo

Motherwell 0-1 Aberdeen (16/04/24): VAR should have recommended an on-field review. Penalty to Motherwell should have been awarded for handball.

[Kmcalpin]

43 minutes ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqln4xjp82xo

Motherwell 0-1 Aberdeen (16/04/24): VAR should have recommended an on-field review. Penalty to Motherwell should have been awarded for handball.

So, Lennon Miller's "goal" was rightly chalked off. That being the case, Ross County's goal ought to have been chalked off earlier in season? 

[texanwellfan]

32 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

So, Lennon Miller's "goal" was rightly chalked off. That being the case, Ross County's goal ought to have been chalked off earlier in season? 

I have to give up and say “I don’t know the handball rule anymore” the only reason we should have got a penalty for Aberdeen handball was to align with earlier decision to chop our goal off. In my opinion neither of them were penalties. Why don’t we go back to good old days of awarding penalty for deliberate hand ball then the decision just has to be did the player make a deliberate effort to handle the ball. Get rid of arm position or making yourself big 

[wellfan]

33 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

I have to give up and say “I don’t know the handball rule anymore”

Given the outcome of the VAR Independent Review Panels held so far, it would appear that the officials don't know the rules either.

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

Given the outcome of the VAR Independent Review Panels held so far, it would appear that the officials don't know the rules either.

I think they know the rules.

Its how they are choosing, or being told to interpret them I have an issue with.

For me Shinnies hand does come out away from his body and the handball stops us gaining an advantage. However, I dont think he did it deliberately and it was in my opinion entirely natural as he was running.

Similar to Bairs at the other end.

They either both are, or in a sane world where VAR doesnt exist, neither are.

Still doesnt excuse the Ross County decision though.

Plenty talk down south from pundits there about binning VAR. Never happening, but clearly not just a problem in our league.

[weeyin]

All VAR has done is move poor decision making on the pitch to poor decision making in the VAR booth.

So instead of instant poor decisions, we have to wait a couple of minutes for them.

The worst is having to wait for every goal to be confirmed. The most important aspect of football has had the spontaneity sucked out of it.

I watch a lot of other leagues, including Scottish Championship, English Championship, Irish etc. and not once have I ever thought "that game would have been better with VAR"

When there are tight (or even poor decisions) players and fans moan for 10 seconds then are right back at it. Which is how the game should be.

 

[wellfan]

53 minutes ago, weeyin said:

All VAR has done is move poor decision making on the pitch to poor decision making in the VAR booth.

So instead of instant poor decisions, we have to wait a couple of minutes for them.

The worst is having to wait for every goal to be confirmed. The most important aspect of football has had the spontaneity sucked out of it.

I watch a lot of other leagues, including Scottish Championship, English Championship, Irish etc. and not once have I ever thought "that game would have been better with VAR"

When there are tight (or even poor decisions) players and fans moan for 10 seconds then are right back at it. Which is how the game should be.

 

I hear you, but I wouldn't be as kind to the officials. The outcome of the first three independent review panels has shown that the number of incorrect decisions via VAR intervention has increased with each review. Put simply, the longer VAR has been used, the worse its application has become in terms of the decision-making around key match incidents.

Scotland’s Coefficient on Twitter provides a useful summary:

https://x.com/scotlandscoeff1/status/1785636543811502502?s=46&t=wehikD-exiutCByWu64YEQ

[weeyin]

I didn't know that. It's a pretty damning indictment only made worse by the fact all the clubs are having to contribute valuable cash to the whole debacle. 

[Kmcalpin]

There are several issues at play here and its not all down to VAR. I do get the unnecessary delays and the micro analysing decisions i.e. an incident should be clear and obvious. However, what its poor performance to date does highlight is the level of inconsistency in decision making and the defensive/secretive attitude of the SFA. There is then the adoption of ridiculous rules and guidelines about handball and red card tackles.

A final word on the Jack Vale red card - why was Butland only yellow carded in the St Mirren V Rangers game?

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

A final word on the Jack Vale red card - why was Butland only yellow carded in the St Mirren V Rangers game?

Because he plays for Rangers. 

[wellfan]

Herein lies the general issue with the SFA and VAR, and we have the evidence to show this:

• The referee interprets the rules one way
• The VAR interprets the rules another way
• The SFA's compliance officer interprets the rules another way
• The SFA's VAR independent review panel interprets the rules another way

Add to that the fact that the whole thing is shrouded in secrecy, so we're all fucked. The fact that all of these professionals employed by the SFA can consistently come up with a different interpretation of the rules and differing decisions on the same incident is deeply concerning. Subjectivity is human nature, but I thought VAR was supposed to introduce further objectivity into the process.

The issue is the SFA, its employees, and its cult of secrecy. The stats of the review panels have shown that things are only getting worse. Therefore, a critical review and overhaul of the whole thing must be undertaken by whoever replaces Crawford Allan this summer, as this cannot and should not go on.

[SteelmaninOZ]

21 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Herein lies the general issue with the SFA and VAR, and we have the evidence to show this:

• The referee interprets the rules one way
• The VAR interprets the rules another way
• The SFA's compliance officer interprets the rules another way
• The SFA's VAR independent review panel interprets the rules another way

Add to that the fact that the whole thing is shrouded in secrecy, so we're all fucked. The fact that all of these professionals employed by the SFA can consistently come up with a different interpretation of the rules and differing decisions on the same incident is deeply concerning. Subjectivity is human nature, but I thought VAR was supposed to introduce further objectivity into the process.

The issue is the SFA, its employees, and its cult of secrecy. The stats of the review panels have shown that things are only getting worse. Therefore, a critical review and overhaul of the whole thing must be undertaken by whoever replaces Crawford Allan this summer, as this cannot and should not go on.

Looks like another way is the way to go no? 
grizzly cue…..

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

Therefore, a critical review and overhaul of the whole thing must be undertaken by whoever replaces Crawford Allan this summer, as this cannot and should not go on.

It's the SFA we're talking about here a critical review and owning up to making a James Hunt of running Scottish football,  operating VAR etc are not concepts they have any understanding of and never will, it will be another promotion from within to replace Crawford Allan who will do as they are told so they don't upset the existing clique.

[steelboy]

3 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

 

A final word on the Jack Vale red card - why was Butland only yellow carded in the St Mirren V Rangers game?

Butland played the ball when the St Mirren guy was 6 yards away from him and the guy clattered into Butland. It should have been a foul to Rangers but Nic Walsh can't help himself. 

For someone who criticises refs every single time we play you seem to have a loose grasp on the laws.

That St Mirren player just runs into people all the time. He's the perfect Robinson player.