Motherwell v Aberdeen 16/03/2024

[FirParkCornerExile]

2 hours ago, MJC said:

No arguments there, we deserved to lose. 
 

VAR is a separate issue, and as I said is ruining football matches.

I don't think we did deserve to lose , we were abysmal but Aberdeen were worse. Our age old failing , teams only need one shot at goal to beat us. All game we boot the ball long then with two mins left of normal time, we decide to play possession football and don't put a single ball into the Aberdeen area.

We need a serious clear out if we manage to stay up, this lot will always put us in bother

[MJC]

5 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

I don't think we did deserve to lose , we were abysmal but Aberdeen were worse. Our age old failing , teams only need one shot at goal to beat us. All game we boot the ball long then with two mins left of normal time, we decide to play possession football and don't put a single ball into the Aberdeen area.

We need a serious clear out if we manage to stay up, this lot will always put us in bother

I take your point but if a side is only needing one shot at goal to beat us and we can’t get back in the game with over half of a football match still to play, at home, then I’d say that we deserve to lose. It’s fine margins in this league and games like today’s more often than not come down to which side can take chances at one end and keep goals out at the other. 

[Kmcalpin]

We play our most attractive and effective football when its an open game and we're counterattacking. Our defence is shaky at the best of times and needs serious attention, as does (to a lesser extent) our midfield.  When teams score first against us and then sit in we struggle.

We obviously got it wrong on so many fronts today, but it was still a close game and there's no need to panic as long as SK learns lessons. He watched Aberdeen on Wednesday and so knows how they play so its his reaction to that, that was remiss.  

[grizzlyg]

Haven't read previous posts so here is my view.

SK made total hash of line up...sorry but why was Davor dropped and McGinn left wing back,,?.   We bring on Gent and ping high diagonal passes to him.

Dons would get fitba stopped and Shinnie a bigger arse than Danny Armstrong and that's saying something.  And Collum an absolute joke.

But hey it's a bad day at the office so we move on.....Heid up

[joewarkfanclub]

When I saw the starting line up today I did raise an eyebrow with the changes made and can only presume some players were unwell or carrying knocks.

The back line seemed particularly negative with no Gent or Devine and the midfield too attacking with no Davor.

It also left the bench looking like it was all eggs in one basket, with plenty to shore it up if we were ahead and not much to change it positively if we got behind.

Thought we started slowly and let Aberdeen get the better of the early exchanges, but we seemed to grow into the game and it felt like another act of self harm when we gave up the opening goal.

After that we had some good chances and should really have got level, even before VAR conspired against us.

Second half, I couldnt really understand the substitutions. I can accept Gent being brought on to give us more width but he was largely ineffective and Im not sure what the purpose of bringing Halliday on was. I can only think SK thought we needed more control in midfield and maybe Davor wasnt fit. Otherwise its a mystery.

We did play ok for the first part of the second half and created a few chances that were spurned but the rest of the substitutions were baffling.

Taking Lennon Miller off was madness as we effectively gave up the midfield at that point and bringing 2 youngsters on when we were chasing the game was not fair on them.

If Moses hasnt shown enough in training to get 15-20 mins in front of them at this point, Id question why we have given him a contract. Big Theo had a poor game and had run his race by then and should have been replaced before Vale for me.

Need to see the Shinnie hand ball again, but it certainly looked a lot clearer than the Bair decision.

All said and done though we didnt lost the game because of VAR.

Bad finishing and poor in game management did that.

 

[wellgirl]

28 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

When I saw the starting line up today I did raise an eyebrow with the changes made and can only presume some players were unwell or carrying knocks.

The back line seemed particularly negative with no Gent or Devine and the midfield too attacking with no Davor.

It also left the bench looking like it was all eggs in one basket, with plenty to shore it up if we were ahead and not much to change it positively if we got behind.

Thought we started slowly and let Aberdeen get the better of the early exchanges, but we seemed to grow into the game and it felt like another act of self harm when we gave up the opening goal.

After that we had some good chances and should really have got level, even before VAR conspired against us.

Second half, I couldnt really understand the substitutions. I can accept Gent being brought on to give us more width but he was largely ineffective and Im not sure what the purpose of bringing Halliday on was. I can only think SK thought we needed more control in midfield and maybe Davor wasnt fit. Otherwise its a mystery.

We did play ok for the first part of the second half and created a few chances that were spurned but the rest of the substitutions were baffling.

Taking Lennon Miller off was madness as we effectively gave up the midfield at that point and bringing 2 youngsters on when we were chasing the game was not fair on them.

If Moses hasnt shown enough in training to get 15-20 mins in front of them at this point, Id question why we have given him a contract. Big Theo had a poor game and had run his race by then and should have been replaced before Vale for me.

Need to see the Shinnie hand ball again, but it certainly looked a lot clearer than the Bair decision.

All said and done though we didnt lost the game because of VAR.

Bad finishing and poor in game management did that.

 

Moses hasn't played competitive football since  January. Kettlewell made that clear in interviews this week. Obviously there must have been a reason why Davor didn't start today. 

[joewarkfanclub]

Just now, wellgirl said:

Moses hasn't played competitive football since  January. Kettlewell made that clear in interviews this week. 

I do know that.

But he has at least played some senior football and was on the bench, so should have had at least 15 - 20 mins in him.

Im not against playing young players.

I just dont think today was the correct time and circumstance.

[wellgirl]

1 minute ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I do know that.

But he has at least played some senior football and was on the bench, so should have had at least 15 - 20 mins in him.

Im not against playing young players.

I just dont think today was the correct time and circumstance.

I understand the point you are making but some folk have been shouting all season to get Ferrie on. We can't have it all ways. 

[Kmcalpin]

13 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

I understand the point you are making but some folk have been shouting all season to get Ferrie on. We can't have it all ways. 

There have been one or two but many more have commented that he's nowhere near ready. We saw a few cameos of him early in the season and quite a few thought that he wasn't ready. At that time he looked to be way out of his depth. 

He then went out on loan to a lower league club at Stenhousemuir but failed to make any impression and hardly got any game time. He then returned. 

Now I don't understand why Moses wasn't given any time today like 15 or 20 minutes. Although he hasn't played for some weeks, he's played more than Mark Ferrie. I'm all for giving young lads gametime but it has to be in the right situation. Today only served to prove that young Ferrie should be nowhere near the first team squad for his own good. He needs time in the gym and a loan spell at a lower league club where he can get playing time. I don't know about Dylan Wells. One of a number of odd decisions from SK today. 

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

27 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Now I don't understand why Moses wasn't given any time today like 15 or 20 minutes.

He'll be miles off it.  Look how bad we were today with a week off.  He's not played in 2 months.

And you need to give kids a chance to learn and gain experience.  Ferrie wasn't any worse than anyone else.  

Bair was straight through on goal today if he didn't have the first touch of a pregnant hippo. 

[Spiderpig]

43 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

There have been one or two but many more have commented that he's nowhere near ready. We saw a few cameos of him early in the season and quite a few thought that he wasn't ready. At that time he looked to be way out of his depth. 

He then went out on loan to a lower league club at Stenhousemuir but failed to make any impression and hardly got any game time. He then returned. 

Now I don't understand why Moses wasn't given any time today like 15 or 20 minutes. Although he hasn't played for some weeks, he's played more than Mark Ferrie. I'm all for giving young lads gametime but it has to be in the right situation. Today only served to prove that young Ferrie should be nowhere near the first team squad for his own good. He needs time in the gym and a loan spell at a lower league club where he can get playing time. I don't know about Dylan Wells. One of a number of odd decisions from SK today. 

 

Well said Dave, brining on two very inexperienced Academy players when we were chasing the game was a nonsense, both of them hardly touched the ball and as you say neither of them are ready for 1st team football.

If he was on the bench Ebiye must be fit enough for 20 or 30 mins, so I can't understand why he was not brought on to add something different up front.

In all not a good day re tactics, team formation, or team selection for SK and we let a poor Aberdeen side off the hook.

 

[wellgirl]

Just now, Spiderpig said:

Well said Dave, brining on two very inexperienced Academy players when we were chasing the game was a nonsense, both of them hardly touched the ball and as you say neither of them are ready for 1st team football.

If he was on the bench Ebiye must be fit enough for 20 or 30 mins, so I can't understand why he was not brought on to add something different up front.

In all not a good day re tactics, team formation, or team selection for SK and we let a poor Aberdeen side off the hook.

 

Completely disagree re Ebiye. Irrespective of the mistakes Kettlewell made today think he knows better than us if someone is fit enough to be brought on. 

[Kmcalpin]

6 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

Completely disagree re Ebiye. Irrespective of the mistakes Kettlewell made today think he knows better than us if someone is fit enough to be brought on. 

If that was the case, and he was so unfit, what was he doing on the bench in the first place? 

[wellgirl]

8 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

If that was the case, and he was so unfit, what was he doing on the bench in the first place? 

Not everyone on the bench gets brought on. How much game time has Elliot had for example? Or Van Veen at Killie. It's clear KVV has had fitness issues but he's still made the bench every week since he signed for them. I think this is just unnecessary nit picking. 

[claretband]

Sportscene opinion is both handball decisions are jokes…


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[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, wellgirl said:

Not everyone on the bench gets brought on. How much game time has Elliot had for example? Or Van Veen at Killie. It's clear KVV has had fitness issues but he's still made the bench every week since he signed for them. I think this is just unnecessary nit picking. 

Van Veen hasn't been played much by Killie admittedly, but he has been brought on 6 times from the bench, including when he was first signed and today.  

No-one, including me is saying that the decision to favour Ferrie over Moses was a game changing decision, but it was an interesting one nonetheless. As such, its a perfectly legitimate subject for discussion under this game thread.  The game threw up all manner of issues, all of which are worthy of discussion.  Its all about opinions and its perfectly fine to agree to differ.  

[wellsince75]

Aberdeens game mgt was much better than ours. 

They had better energy, better passing and won the majority of 1st and 2nd balls. 

Like most teams that play us they dominated midfield , we needed more than just Miller as the defensive style midfield player. 

That said it was a poor Aberdeen team and with a bit more energy and oomf we could have won. 

Not great when our best attacking option off the bench is Gent. Brining on Nicholson rather than starting him made more sense.

I suspect we're now in no mans land. The slim chance of top 6 is gone, there's still a slim chance of being caught at the bottom. 

Real shame  - we simply blew it yesterday. It's much more fun when thinking about progressing up the league. 

[joewarkfanclub]

10 hours ago, wellgirl said:

Completely disagree re Ebiye. Irrespective of the mistakes Kettlewell made today think he knows better than us if someone is fit enough to be brought on. 

If he isnt fit enough to be brought on, he shouldnt be on the bench. 

Nicholson starting instead of Davor was the one that really surprised me as he is a great impact player off the bench.

I thought he did ok yesterday and was unfortunate to be hooked at half time but looking at what was needed over the 90 plus minutes it was a surprise he started.

Can only assume maybe Davor was carrying a niggle given the choice was to bring Halliday on.

You are correct that SK and his staff are the only ones who really know why certain decisions were made and there could be very justifiable reasons for team selections and substitutions, but without that information it all just looked a bit odd and is worthy of debate.

[joewarkfanclub]

6 minutes ago, Wee Dougie said:

Think we are being very hard on the Manager here. Firstly we are not in the inner circle re injury /fitness etc. Secondly for all those saying that VAR didn't lose us the game, it did. The decisions were truly awful (imagine had it been one of the Ugly Sisters) Letters to everyone in the Sfa, a withdrawal of access to there stadiums for anyone saying otherwise and for the next 2 weeks, the papers bigging up the injustice. As the manager said, if Ross County's goal stands, so should ours. The time taken to overrule should tell everyone that. It was a game that probably a draw was the correct outcome, but as Roos was voted man of the game on BBC, then yes, penalty for hand ball against that tosser Shinnie and a 2-1,win. For us auld yins, VAR is ruining football, as McCann stated last night these decisions would result in a red card for him. On another note, the bold Mr Collum gave Roos, umpteen warnings before giving him a yellow, but Ketts goes  of his nut at Collum for not giving us a foul and the yellow card is out, no warning, straight out. Absolute bell end of a referee, but they get protected by the Sfa and all and sundry. Don't expect to see the arse licking Mr Keevens write about how one of the little teams were wronged, that doesn't sell papers. 

We were actually discussing at half time that Collum had, by his standards, a pretty good game yesterday and got pretty much everything correct, up until the VAR intervention.

He could have looked at that and justified the goal on the basis that from the camera angles given the point of contact with Bairs arm isnt clear therefore no clear and obvious error. Onfield decision stands.

We then discussed that, this would be the point it all unravelled for Collum and the game would become all about him.

And so it turned out.

Numerous baffling decisions for fouls both ways, the time wasting, as you mention, failing to book Roos. The yellow card for SK, the yellow card for SOD, only adding 3 mins when there were at least that for subs, never mind injuries and time wasting.

His attitude towards our players at the end when awaiting VAR confirmation on the pen was just the icing on the cake.

Ive no idea why matches turn out that way for him, but its like a switch flicks and he goes into meltdown.

I despair when I see he is refereeing any of our games as it rarely ends well for us.

[Kmcalpin]

Its high time the SFA made public to all and sundry, its interpretation of the rules and VAR and how they're passed to officials. I'm thinking here of handball, "clear and obvious error", added time.

In terms of added time for example, what is the SFA's stance? Has time wasting got to be clear cheating? Persistent? How many warnings do culprits get?  How much time is added on for substitutions? How much time for goals and VAR checks?  I get that injuries are different. All this  shouldn't be beyond them. It would also take the heat off them and their officials

[star sail]

Regarding the VAR decisions and refereeing standards in general, I am happy to accept that mistakes are made.

VAR has significant human input and players, managers and referees are making mistakes all the time on the field of play. Any reasonable person has to accept honest mistakes.

Where I struggle is with the lack of transparency. If there was an explanation after the game by the referee as to the thought process behind why the Bair hand ball is a hand ball and the Shinnie one not, then it would educate everyone as to the interpretation of the rules from a referees perspective and give managers, players and fans the reassurance that the decision was reached in a rational, fair minded way.

The fact that there is no transparency is what sows doubt in the mind. The silence suggests that the referees are not so confident in their processes at best and are simply making it up as they go along at worst. 

These decisions can be the difference between Premier League survival or not. It is too important to let the whims of Collum or any other referee determine what happens. Transparency allows the referees to show that their decisions were reached in a fair minded and honest way even if we don't always agree with it. I don't understand why governing bodies shy away from the opportunity to prove the legitimacy of their processes.

[pretzel]

Collum turned 45 this year, hopefully he decides to retire soon. Each and every game always becomes his show it always baffles me that he was looked at as one of our top refs. 

Kettlewell has mentioned he has approached Crawford Allan on numerous occasions about some of these decisions but it seems the guy contradicts himself often. Even last year we concede against Rangers where the lines suggest the guy is offside but they give a goal as apparently the lines were touching which apparently means he was on, then you guessed it weeks later Van Veen has a goal ruled out against Dundee United in the exact same circumstances.

I've found VAR a massive turn off for football. I honestly hate that feeling celebrating a goal then you hear the dreaded 'VAR checking possible......'.

 

[si91]

I’ve watched the highlights on tv and McCann gets it spot on - it’s high up on the sleeve against Bair and more towards the elbow for Shinnie. There is a panel that reviews the VAR decisions at the end of each round of games and I’m sure there will be an acknowledgment of the errors in this game; but that’s pointless (just like us yesterday). If we end up in the play-offs by a point, will the SFA or the SPFL save us? No chance. 

When VAR was brought in, it was for clear and obvious errors; the scrutiny required to see Bair’s handball (??) tells you that it was clear or obvious. Collum was standing facing the Shinnie one, with an uninterrupted view - that’s surely clear and obvious.

As many others have said, VAR isn’t ruining the game; it’s the poor humans who are operating it. We had poor officials before VAR and all we have done, is out the same poor officials in front of a tv screen. 

[Kmcalpin]

You can also this blunder to the list...our first home game against Aberdeen, when a clear penalty was missed because it was very late in the game and it was switched off. Was that decision ever reviewed?

[wellsince75]

31 minutes ago, si91 said:

I’ve watched the highlights on tv and McCann gets it spot on - it’s high up on the sleeve against Bair and more towards the elbow for Shinnie. There is a panel that reviews the VAR decisions at the end of each round of games and I’m sure there will be an acknowledgment of the errors in this game; but that’s pointless (just like us yesterday). If we end up in the play-offs by a point, will the SFA or the SPFL save us? No chance. 

When VAR was brought in, it was for clear and obvious errors; the scrutiny required to see Bair’s handball (??) tells you that it was clear or obvious. Collum was standing facing the Shinnie one, with an uninterrupted view - that’s surely clear and obvious.

As many others have said, VAR isn’t ruining the game; it’s the poor humans who are operating it. We had poor officials before VAR and all we have done, is out the same poor officials in front of a tv screen. 

Brilliant post - sums it up to a tee