Seasons end poll

[stv]

Very up and down season. My main highlights of it not in any particular order.

 

Cup runs as usual pathetic and lost revenue.

Some of the goals we scored especially in injury time to get a draw were very good, showed good team spirt.

Management decision to concentrate too much on the opposition and guessing what they were going to do, the full week before we played them is pretty poor.  We should be playing to our strengths not worrying too much about how to nullify the opposition , over cautious approach to winable games  was very disappointing.

Overthinking games until we were behind then deciding to try n score and giving it a go.

Theo Bair proving most folk were talking shite at start of the season.

Beating Rangers at Ibrox at last 

Shite defending and costly basic mistakes

PLAYING PLAYERS ALL OVER THE PARK NOT IN THEIR NATURAL POSITIONS. (except “i’ll catch it Kelly”)

Next season hopefully manager has learned a lot about game preparation and positive tactics. New investment money on the way to be used wisely. Also realising he's no really as smart as he thinks he is. 

[wellgirl]

48 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

I'm satisfied that we worked our way out of our rut rather than sacking SK and keeping fingers crossed that that would fix it. I'm also satisfied by the performances of a handful of individuals and by the effort of the team as a unit throughout the season.

There's a lot of room for improvement though and a lot of players leaving so I hope that SK can learn from his mistakes and put together a more solid squad for next season.

I am too. 

[wellgirl]

To be honest with you. I think we could all go on about Stuart Kettlewell overthinking.

It will make zero difference to how he picks his team. He saved us when Hammell and the club parted ways and we are still in the Spl. Yes he's made mistakes but so do other managers. I like him. I like his honesty. He's never hidden away from the press. 

Im not a football manager thank god and it's very easy to criticise when we aren't in that position. And fans obviously do have the right to their point of view because they are the ones who turn up week in and week out.

[Throughthelaces]

I’ve had time to think about the season and my reflection is that we had some really good moments that comeback against Hibs, beating hearts at tynecastle beating rangers, livi away County at home, however we’ve had some real lows that 15 game run, Morton, St Mirren League Cup it’s been a very poor season in terms of entertainment.

 I think the 22/23 season was a massive red flag in terms of we were doomed if Kettlewell didn’t take over and do the job he did when Hammell was sacked. But we recruited rather poorly in the summer and rectified it with a few additions in the January. We need to get this window right and I’m hoping to see a much improved defence and midfield next season. We desperately need to replace. the 23/24 was perhaps steadier but also a step back and the league table tells you that. It was a season where we stayed up ultimately but we should be trying to bridge the gap next season on Killie and st Mirren 

[wunderwell]

On 5/20/2024 at 6:52 AM, Mccus28 said:

I was surprised to know that some people seemed to take offense to my suggestion that the majority of our fans wouldn't be satisfied with a 9th place finish and poor cup runs so thought a poll was in order to get the overall opinion rather than infighting

Will be interesting to see the result

I think from this poll - as it was me that was arguing the point with you - that we both take something away.
Yes you are correct it was a majority.
Was much more in line with the 50/50 I was talking about in terms of a split.
I think if there was a middle option it would have won comfortably. But it was more challenging to pick yes or no.
Well done on the poll - what's next?!

[Throughthelaces]

I voted no as i felt we weren’t good enough for large parts of the season and that ultimately cost us a place in the top 6 we didn’t even finish 7th which is my absolute minimum for a decent season. Our cup performances were shocking. We did have some real good moments in the season and I enjoyed them and will look back on those fondly, but we failed to capitalise I thought after we beat Livi and Rangers and played really well that week we’d turned a corner and would charge up the league but then we ran out of steam.

[Mccus28]

5 hours ago, wunderwell said:

I think from this poll - as it was me that was arguing the point with you - that we both take something away.
Yes you are correct it was a majority.
Was much more in line with the 50/50 I was talking about in terms of a split.
I think if there was a middle option it would have won comfortably. But it was more challenging to pick yes or no.
Well done on the poll - what's next?!

Yeah, quite interesting to see everyones opinion

Good debates are what its all about

[StirlingDosser]

I don't think finishing 9th is satisfactory however it reflects the ongoing slump we are in as a club which has been underway for a few seasons. We are loosing our competitiveness in the league I feel. 

As for Kettlewell, he seems like a genuine guy and a good coach. I'm not in the bin him camp however I don't believe we should renew his contract beyond next season right enough as I can't see us making progress with him at the helm beyond what we are currently achieving. I don't think the product on the park has been great for much of his tenure either. 

The ethos at the minute that the clubs aim every season is purely to avoid relegation is unacceptable. That isn't being unrealistic, it's a game and a competition. The whole point is to compete and aim up the way. To publicly have the mindset that all we have to do every year is avoid relegation cannot be good for mindsets and sets a bar of mediocrity. If the clubs core aim every year is simply to avoid relegation what's the point? 

[weeyin]

6 hours ago, StirlingDosser said:

If the clubs core aim every year is simply to avoid relegation what's the point? 

That's not the club's aim, though. You just need to listen to SK talk for 20 minutes to know that. It's all about improvement for him and building a competitive team that is finishing top 6. 

There are 4 or 5 teams every season that are very closely matched and it's small margins that make the difference between 5th and 9th. 

As I mentioned earlier since the SPL was formed we have finished 8th more often than any other position. The seasons where we finished 2nd and 3rd were very much the (hugely enjoyable) exceptions. 

It wasn't that long ago that we finished 3rd though, albeit in a Covid season. 

Dumbarton, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Raith Rovers, Accies, Caley Thistle, Partick Thistle and Morton all used to be top flight regulars and relegation hasn't been kind to them. Even worse for Clydebank, Gretna and the original Airdrie who also spent time in the SPL. 

Our rivals over the years like St Mirren, Hibs, Hearts, Killie, Dundee, Dundee Utd etc. have all been relegated and in some case spent a number of seasons in the lower leagues. So it's not a bad goal to ensure safety as quickly as possible - that is very different, however, from avoiding relegation as being our only goal and the benchmark of success. 

[wellgirl]

7 hours ago, StirlingDosser said:

I don't think finishing 9th is satisfactory however it reflects the ongoing slump we are in as a club which has been underway for a few seasons. We are loosing our competitiveness in the league I feel. 

As for Kettlewell, he seems like a genuine guy and a good coach. I'm not in the bin him camp however I don't believe we should renew his contract beyond next season right enough as I can't see us making progress with him at the helm beyond what we are currently achieving. I don't think the product on the park has been great for much of his tenure either. 

The ethos at the minute that the clubs aim every season is purely to avoid relegation is unacceptable. That isn't being unrealistic, it's a game and a competition. The whole point is to compete and aim up the way. To publicly have the mindset that all we have to do every year is avoid relegation cannot be good for mindsets and sets a bar of mediocrity. If the clubs core aim every year is simply to avoid relegation what's the point? 

It's for budget reasons we aim for tenth - planning for the lowest placing in the league. If you check the stats we've only made top six nine times out of the last twenty years. I believe we finished third under Robbo but also 9th 8th and 7th. I personally don't think we are in a slump. We've finished top six twice in the last ten years. 

We could have done a lot better this season obviously -next season will be an important one for Kettlewell, that's clear. 

[wellgirl]

18 minutes ago, weeyin said:

That's not the club's aim, though. You just need to listen to SK talk for 20 minutes to know that. It's all about improvement for him and building a competitive team that is finishing top 6. 

There are 4 or 5 teams every season that are very closely matched and it's small margins that make the difference between 5th and 9th. 

As I mentioned earlier since the SPL was formed we have finished 8th more often than any other position. The seasons where we finished 2nd and 3rd were very much the (hugely enjoyable) exceptions. 

It wasn't that long ago that we finished 3rd though, albeit in a Covid season. 

Dumbarton, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Raith Rovers, Accies, Caley Thistle, Partick Thistle and Morton all used to be top flight regulars and relegation hasn't been kind to them. Even worse for Clydebank, Gretna and the original Airdrie who also spent time in the SPL. 

Our rivals over the years like St Mirren, Hibs, Hearts, Killie, Dundee, Dundee Utd etc. have all been relegated and in some case spent a number of seasons in the lower leagues. So it's not a bad goal to ensure safety as quickly as possible - that is very different, however, from avoiding relegation as being our only goal and the benchmark of success. 

Yeah absolutely. Avoiding the drop is essential because the Championship isn't easy to get out of once a team is in it. Look at Accies since they got relegated. 

[Spiderpig]

18 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

Yeah absolutely. Avoiding the drop is essential because the Championship isn't easy to get out of once a team is in it. Look at Accies since they got relegated. 

Most of the longer term premiership clubs ie from about position 5 downwards would romp the championship as did Dundee untd this year. The gulf in class between the premiership and the championship is much bigger than people realise, keep your eye on Livingston lf they keep the majority of the current squad then I expect them to be championship title challengers.

 

[wellgirl]

9 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Most of the longer term premiership clubs ie from about position 5 downwards would romp the championship as did Dundee untd this year. The gulf in class between the premiership and the championship is much bigger than people realise, keep your eye on Livingston lf they keep the majority of the current squad then I expect them to be championship title challengers.

 

I think you're right and that's the case now - but I don't think that's always been the case. Teams you would have expected to come straight back up haven't always done that in a season. 

I think Dundee Utd would have struggled a lot more if they hadn't had Moult (stating the absolute obvious here ).

What I mean is at the start of the season fans were still calling for Goodwin to go and it took them a few games to get into their stride. I think they benefited from having several players who had played at a higher level. Watt Moult and a few others. 

[wellfan]

6 hours ago, weeyin said:

It's all about improvement for him and building a competitive team that is finishing top 6. 

If seeking to retain the majority of a defence that's only kept three clean sheets all season is his idea of improvement, we’re doomed.  

[dennyc]

44 minutes ago, wellfan said:

If seeking to retain the majority of a defence that's only kept three clean sheets all season is his idea of improvement, we’re doomed.  

Not just the majority. Every one of them. 100%!  Either already under contract, offered terms or requested back on loan. Add in retained youngsters (Ross and Wilson) and that would not have left much, if any, room for additions.

I don't think that every one of them needed to go, but because of contracts expiring we had the chance to make wholesale changes to a poorly performing area of the team and at the same time ending up with a bloated squad and a massively increased wage bill. Not so sure that will be possible now. 

[wellgirl]

1 minute ago, dennyc said:

Not just the majority. Every one of them. 100%!  Either already under contract, offered terms or requested back on loan. Add in retained youngsters (Ross and Wilson) and that would not have left much, if any, room for additions.

I don't think that every one of them needed to go, but because of contracts expiring we had the chance to make wholesale changes to a poorly performing area of the team and at the same time ending up with a bloated squad and a massively increased wage bill. Not so sure that will be possible now. 

To be fair if they are under contract there's very little the club can do. Plus Kelly and Butcher are away. Casey and Blaney are the ones still under contract? 

[dennyc]

41 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

To be fair if they are under contract there's very little the club can do. Plus Kelly and Butcher are away. Casey and Blaney are the ones still under contract? 

If every one of the out of contract players had accepted new terms, we could have ended up with exactly the same defence we completed the season with. Possibly except for Gent who many considered the best and most dynamic of the lot. Fortunately a couple have rejected terms as you say so that will not happen, But the concerning message is that the club, with or without SK's approval,  were prepared to run 100% with a group of players that regularly underperformed as a unit.

No offence, but would you have been comfortable starting the season with, Kelly, SOD, McGinn, Mugabi, Butcher, Casey, Gent (maybe) Blaney as first choices with Wilson, Ross,  Oxborough as back ups? Our Board and Manager apparently were. We got away with it this season. Not so sure we would have next season given the senior players would all be a year older. At least now with Kelly and Butcher moving on there is some scope for change. But not as much scope as there should have been. All about opinions though.

[wellgirl]

15 minutes ago, dennyc said:

If every one of the out of contract players had accepted new terms, we could have ended up with exactly the same defence we completed the season with. Possibly except for Gent who many considered the best and most dynamic of the lot. Fortunately a couple have rejected terms as you say so that will not happen, But the concerning message is that the club, with or without SK's approval,  were prepared to run 100% with a group of players that regularly underperformed as a unit.

No offence, but would you have comfortable starting the season with, Kelly, SOD, McGinn, Mugabi, Butcher, Casey, Gent (maybe) Blaney as first choices with Wilson, Ross,  Oxborough as back ups? Our Board and Manager apparently were. We got away with it this season. Not so sure we would have next season given the senior players would all be a year older. At least now with Kelly and Butcher moving on there is some scope for change. But not as much scope as there should have been. All about opinions though.

The only one I've got concerns about is Mugabi. And tbh. They wont be a year older. They will be three months older than when the season finished. I can understand why we offered Butcher new terms even if it possibly wasn't the wisest decision. 

As for Ox. No one knows yet whether he will be first choice or not. Also. There are people who have been shouting for the youth to be given a chance. I absolutely understand why people are concerned. But there's a long way to go till August. I assume Kelly was offered terms and said no. But I don't know. 

Id be more than happy if Gent returned. And I do understand why people think our defence needs a complete overhaul. 

Re Kelly. I think it was time for him to go and I think most people knew he wouldn't be with us next season. Even though his form dipped for us he was always going to attract interest from elsewhere. 

I do think SOD is worth another year though. Agree. All about opinions.  

[dennyc]

Fair do's they won't be a year older compared to season end. I stand corrected. Apologies.

They will be a year older than they were when last season started, and so on throughout the season. Not so relevant regards youngsters but a factor to be considered with senior players as games mount up. Especially if we have two good cup runs......I live in hope. 

I agree with your views re Gent, SOD, Mugabi and Kelly. With only limited viewing admittedly, Wilson is the only youngster that I think is anywhere near first team ready. And he was farmed out on loan last season after the League Cup so not clear what plans they have for him. Happy he has another year.

[wellgirl]

10 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Fair do's they won't be a year older compared to season end. I stand corrected. Apologies.

They will be a year older than they were when last season started, and so on throughout the season. Not so relevant regards youngsters but a factor to be considered with senior players as games mount up. Especially if we have two good cup runs......I live in hope. 

I agree with your views re Gent, SOD, Mugabi and Kelly. With only limited viewing admittedly, Wilson is the only youngster that I think is anywhere near first team ready. And he was farmed out on loan last season after the League Cup so not clear what plans they have for him. Happy he has another year.

A few people were calling for Ross and Ferrie to get game time. I assume Kettlewell rates them as they got on last game of the season. Someone has just said on pie and bov they think McGinn is fitter and faster than SOD even though he's older. I've never really thought about that tbh. I just think SOD is a much better player than he gets credit for at times. 

Personally. I'd like to see them both retained for us. The one I'm concerned about is Mugabi. 

Id also like to see another keeper signed. But on the other hand I think Ox has waited long enough for his chance. 

No need to apologise. Think we can just hope that we do decent business when the transfer window opens and there will be competition for places. I do think also our defence has been shaky for more than one season. We let more or less the same amount of goals in the season before. There's maybe just been more focus on it this season due to the long winless streak. 

I'd love to see Gent back with us even though it's probably never going to happen. We do need young defenders too. 

[wellsince75]

Reflections are there's not a huge amount to be excited about. At best glad we avoided relegation. 

With a reduced budget 9th was always a likely outcome and after a horrendous run of 17 game it became a decent outcome. 

I'm struggling to see any progress as a club. When I look at the squad I don't see many young Scots coming through or many young anything coming through.   

The positives were young Miller , Gent,  Bair & Spittal.   All of whom may not be here next season. 

We like most of Scottish football are regressing, sadly I think we're regressing quicker than many.  I'm sick of signing journeyman from lower reaches of England and equally fed up listening about the lack of funds, offering the same duds new contracts.  

The glimmer of hope is new investment, new CEO etc may kick us up the backside and move us forward. 

[Kmcalpin]

4 hours ago, wellsince75 said:

Reflections are there's not a huge amount to be excited about. At best glad we avoided relegation. 

With a reduced budget 9th was always a likely outcome and after a horrendous run of 17 game it became a decent outcome. 

I'm struggling to see any progress as a club. When I look at the squad I don't see many young Scots coming through or many young anything coming through.   

The positives were young Miller , Gent,  Bair & Spittal.   All of whom may not be here next season. 

We like most of Scottish football are regressing, sadly I think we're regressing quicker than many.  I'm sick of signing journeyman from lower reaches of England and equally fed up listening about the lack of funds, offering the same duds new contracts.  

The glimmer of hope is new investment, new CEO etc may kick us up the backside and move us forward. 

I view last season as a transitional one. One in which SK settled in and began to implement his own changes, after a spell of considerable managerial upheaval. Given this context finishing 9th was acceptable. Our cup runs were another matter. This summer will be huge for SK and us. He has been given a blank canvas should he want it, but he has to make the right signings. I've no doubt we'll pick up some decent players and yes, some duds too. Should our summer acquisitions be unsuccessful, our cup runs poor again, and we fail to improve on 9th place in the league, then yes, questions will rightly be aksed.