Richie Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 Give them the top tier only until they can be trusted. ...Or Provide tickets on the basis that it is Celtic that sell/allocate them and arrange policing of their fans etc. Sure similar has been done elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well_said Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 1 hour ago, Richie said: Give them the top tier only until they can be trusted. ...Or Provide tickets on the basis that it is Celtic that sell/allocate them and arrange policing of their fans etc. Sure similar has been done elsewhere. Give them the minimum allocation allowed and charge them the maximum allowed . Letting Celtic handle the tickets wouldn't work as they are scared of the goon brigade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 6 minutes ago, well_said said: Give them the minimum allocation allowed and charge them the maximum allowed . Letting Celtic handle the tickets wouldn't work as they are scared of the goon brigade. I believe that number is somewhere around 600 or so, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well_said Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 14 minutes ago, David said: I believe that number is somewhere around 600 or so, isn't it? 15 minutes ago, David said: I believe that number is somewhere around 600 or so, isn't it? Whatever it is it's still too many . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 I was curious as to what the current rules say about minimum numbers and was suprised to see it laid out this way in SPFL Rule I27 Quote The Home club must make provision for the admission of such reasonable number of visiting supporters at every home League Match and Play-Off Match as may be agreed in advance with the Visiting Club and, in the event of their being unable to agree such number not later than 14 days prior to the date of the League Match or Play-Off Match in question, the number of visiting supporters allowed shall be determined by the Board whose decision shall be final and binding So basically, there isn't a specific minimum number or percentage and if we came up with a reasonable safety related excuse could probably cut the allocation they have now. I'm not a fan of banning away supporters in general, but wouldn't object if we eliminated or reduced the OF numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wispy Flossy Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 Absolute vermin. I would ban the lot of them for a season whether there’s justification or not 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motherwellfc1991 Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 I find it ironic that our safety officer can’t put arrangements in place to prevent ‘doubling up’ at turnstiles when Celtic come to town and jeopardise our safety certificate and a fine but is quick to play the safety card to ruin the east stand by removing the front row to cover up a monumental mistake on his part He continues to play the big I am until there’s a proper problem then he’s nowhere to be seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larkhall Dosser Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 3 hours ago, weeyin said: I was curious as to what the current rules say about minimum numbers and was suprised to see it laid out this way in SPFL Rule I27 So basically, there isn't a specific minimum number or percentage and if we came up with a reasonable safety related excuse could probably cut the allocation they have now. I'm not a fan of banning away supporters in general, but wouldn't object if we eliminated or reduced the OF numbers. Have the old firm not got a 5% minimum agreement for away fan allocation agreed with spfl. id be ok with that 13742 at 5% is 867 and stick them in the top tier of the south stand. if 5% is good enough for them then that should be good enough for us to enforce. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 2 hours ago, Motherwellfc1991 said: I find it ironic that our safety officer can’t put arrangements in place to prevent ‘doubling up’ at turnstiles when Celtic come to town and jeopardise our safety certificate and a fine but is quick to play the safety card to ruin the east stand by removing the front row to cover up a monumental mistake on his part He continues to play the big I am until there’s a proper problem then he’s nowhere to be seen. When I mentioned doubling up at turnstiles I thought it was two people going through the turnstiles at once but it's apparently people smashing the fire doors in to let others in? Is that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 47 minutes ago, Larkhall Dosser said: Have the old firm not got a 5% minimum agreement for away fan allocation agreed with spfl. id be ok with that 13742 at 5% is 867 and stick them in the top tier of the south stand. if 5% is good enough for them then that should be good enough for us to enforce. Well, according to the rule, if we don't agree in advance then the OF can ask the Board for a decision. It could be that is the Board's default number, but there is nothing in the rule that requires that or any other specific figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larkhall Dosser Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 10 minutes ago, weeyin said: Well, according to the rule, if we don't agree in advance then the OF can ask the Board for a decision. It could be that is the Board's default number, but there is nothing in the rule that requires that or any other specific figure. Personally id ban both sets of old firm fans, but i know financially we cant afford to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted October 28 Report Share Posted October 28 Just now, Larkhall Dosser said: Personally id ban both sets of old firm fans, but i know financially we cant afford to This is it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 9 hours ago, wellgirl said: When I mentioned doubling up at turnstiles I thought it was two people going through the turnstiles at once but it's apparently people smashing the fire doors in to let others in? Is that right? Yes that's right, not sure if it happened on Sunday but it did the last time the uglies were at Fir park. Every stairway and exit was full of standing fans on Sunday, they were even standing on the steelwork at the back of the top tier, so the stand was well above capacity. What annoys me though is the stewards and police stood and watched this happening and did feck all, so much for ensuring the safety of supporters, what's the point of them being there. The club are well aware of what's happening but are doing nothing to sort it out, can you imagine the uproar if it was well fans storming the gates at parkhead. The football authorities in Scotland have always pandered to the green and blue uglies, the other clubs need to start asking why and get it sorted out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 I seem to recall some years ago in an evening League Cup game (it could have been against Accies but I'm not sure) that the Police ordered admission to the East Stand to be stopped as they considered it it to be overly full. In fact it was a hundred or two below capacity. Does anyone else remember that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well_said Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 56 minutes ago, Spiderpig said: Yes that's right, not sure if it happened on Sunday but it did the last time the uglies were at Fir park. Every stairway and exit was full of standing fans on Sunday, they were even standing on the steelwork at the back of the top tier, so the stand was well above capacity. What annoys me though is the stewards and police stood and watched this happening and did feck all, so much for ensuring the safety of supporters, what's the point of them being there. The club are well aware of what's happening but are doing nothing to sort it out, can you imagine the uproar if it was well fans storming the gates at parkhead. The football authorities in Scotland have always pandered to the green and blue uglies, the other clubs need to start asking why and get it sorted out Many of the hierarchy at the other clubs are old firm fans . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 Pretty sure the club will be aware of the problem and will be having discussions behind the scenes with Celtic and the SPFL to try and stop this. Much as I would love to see the CEO going public on it and "outing" Celtic on the matter, its not really the way these things are handled if you want to keep good relations between the clubs (again, I understand most fans couldnt give a shit about that, but the club will and should). There certainly should be greater responsibility placed on Celtic to "police" their own support. Additional stewarding both sides of fire exits, more police checking tickets before fans even get anywhere near the turnstyles are all possible and Celtic should be charged with picking up the cost of this given their fans are repeat offenders. I would ve concerned if there is doubling up on turnstyles given we dont have e-turnstyles. Its mostly young lassies scanning barcodes. Id hate to think they were being intimidated into letting this occur. One things for sure, it cant continue. Sunday was the worst Ive seen it in both top and bottom tiers and it is an accident waiting to happen. The club will know this and wont want to be held liable when it all goes wrong. Be nice to hear the views of the Society Board on this, at least to acknowledge the issue and that efforts are being made to address it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 Maybe I'm being a bit stupid here but if every fan has to go through a turnstile which presumably registers the entry then the club should be able to tell exactly how many fans have entered through the turnstiles at any given time?. So unless there was other incidents where fans entered the ground illegally that we dont know about then it doesn't add up. Another part of the problem is that all the wee hangers on want to sit near the green brigade which understandably creates problems in that particular area but doesn't explain why the rest of the footwells were overcrowded. Once they're in the ground I would imagine it's near logistically impossible to turf them out so more robust checking of tickets before entry would help alleviate the problem or even reverting to paper tickets which would speed up the process by not having to check phones etc. I'm sure some kind of security measure could be added to the paper tickets so that they couldn't be forged and any attempt to do so picked up by the scanners. As I said once they're in the ground it's too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 4 hours ago, santheman said: Maybe I'm being a bit stupid here but if every fan has to go through a turnstile which presumably registers the entry then the club should be able to tell exactly how many fans have entered through the turnstiles at any given time?. They are kicking open fire doors and doubling up in turnstiles. The last time we played them the genuises in the GB were greeting about stewards blocking fire exits as if you are entitled to use fire doors when there's no emergency incident happening. Celtic cannot control their fans in their own ground. The only solution to this is ban them for a match and force them to change behaviour if they want to get back in. Caldwell spent a lot of time talking about health and safety and safeguarding as reasons to exclude our fans from the ground so he's not got much room to operate in here. If he's giving Celtic fans preferential treatment to Motherwell fans he's got no future here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 In fact I've just got a response from him: "Many thanks for your email and hope you are well. There was no overcrowding on Sunday and no ticketless Celtic fans entered the South Stand due to the measures that were put in place. In fact, the numbers entering the South Stand was well under capacity at the weekend albeit there was some migration from top to bottom tier. We had a ticket cordon at the gates leading down to the turnstiles/stand, so everyone’s tickets were checked. From this we managed to stop around 20 trying to gain entry using old tickets and 30 who didn’t have tickets. Then, at the turnstiles we had additional stewarding deployed at each turnstile (reinforced by Police also) to double check tickets and ensure there were no Celtic fans jumping over without tickets. The migration did cause some issues with Celtic fans on the stairwells however it was decided in conjunction with the Police that to clear the stairs would inflame the situation and be more of a risk to fan and staff safety." If in doubt lie through your teeth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stv Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 What are we paying head of security Mr Park for he should be prioritising issues like this rather that going after our own fans and banning unacompanied younger well fans. Sorry forgot , ex polis = pick on the easy targets first. Hard habit to break i would guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 13 minutes ago, steelboy said: If in doubt lie through your teeth. Here’s a thought: what’s the point of engaging with him and seeking an answer if you’re simply going to accuse him of lying when he doesn’t give you the response you’re after? The fact that he’s taken the time to respond says a great deal. He isn’t obliged to do so at all. I’d bet that most club CEOs wouldn’t even have bothered to read your email. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 10 minutes ago, David said: Here’s a thought: what’s the point of engaging with him and seeking an answer if you’re simply going to accuse him of lying when he doesn’t give you the response you’re after? The fact that he’s taken the time to respond says a great deal. He isn’t obliged to do so at all. I’d bet that most club CEOs wouldn’t even have bothered to read your email. He said at the Q&A he would be contactable by email. No one who was at the game believes the stand wasn't over capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 7 minutes ago, steelboy said: No one who was at the game believes the stand wasn't over capacity. Aside from him and a few club staff, no one who was at the game really knows how many fans were present in that stand. You're making assumptions based on your distant view. It’s entirely possible that some fans with valid tickets for the upper tier chose to watch the match from the lower tier instead. That’s likely the crux of the issue, which is certainly worth discussing. How can we ensure that this doesn’t happen in the future? Your claim that he is outright lying to you is a bit far-fetched. If that had been his intention, he simply wouldn’t have responded. His reply is reasonable, and he isn’t avoiding the topic at all, which he easily could have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 Caldwell reply makes perfect sense and glad that more measures have been put in place. Maybe an additional measure could be to put stewards on the access stairs so that those with tickets for the upper level are directed there and not allowed to the lower level. Easier said than done though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 11 minutes ago, David said: Aside from him and a few club staff, no one who was at the game really knows how many fans were present in that stand. You're making assumptions based on your distant view. It’s entirely possible that some fans with valid tickets for the upper tier chose to watch the match from the lower tier instead. That’s likely the crux of the issue, which is certainly worth discussing. How can we ensure that this doesn’t happen in the future? Your claim that he is outright lying to you is a bit far-fetched. If that had been his intention, he simply wouldn’t have responded. His reply is reasonable, and he isn’t avoiding the topic at all, which he easily could have done. From my view in the East Stand and photos I've seen from other stands there were not enough gaps in the top tier to explain the overcrowding in the bottom tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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