The CEO’s monthly chat

[David]

1 minute ago, steelboy said:

From my view in the East Stand and photos I've seen from other stands there were not enough gaps in the top tier to explain the overcrowding in the bottom tier. 

You’re completely entitled to your opinion, but you don’t have the actual figures. I’m more inclined to trust the CEO, who has access to the attendance data and reports from various stadium staff and so on.

[steelboy]

24 minutes ago, David said:

You’re completely entitled to your opinion, but you don’t have the actual figures. I’m more inclined to trust the CEO, who has access to the attendance data and reports from various stadium staff and so on.

The CEO who recommended we accept Barmack's takeover bid and banned young Motherwell fans from the ground without doing any due diligence.

I will not be taking his word for anything over what I can see with my eyes. 

 

 

[wellgirl]

8 hours ago, santheman said:

Maybe I'm being a bit stupid here but if every fan has to go through a turnstile which presumably registers the entry then the club should be able to tell exactly how many fans have entered through the turnstiles at any given time?.

So unless there was other incidents where fans entered the ground illegally that we dont know about then it doesn't add up.

Another part of the problem is that all the wee hangers on want to sit near the green brigade which understandably creates problems in that particular area but doesn't explain why the rest of the footwells were overcrowded.

Once they're in the ground I would imagine it's near logistically impossible to turf them out so more robust checking of tickets before entry would help alleviate the problem or even reverting to paper tickets which would speed up the process by not having to check phones etc.

I'm sure some kind of security measure could be added to the paper tickets so that they couldn't be forged and any attempt to do so picked up by the scanners.

As I said once they're in the ground it's too late.

It's actually not that easy to go through the turnstiles two at a time. It happened to me once in several years of being a steward. It's a small space and not easy to do. As other people have said they got in by kicking fire exit doors open. 

[wellgirl]

3 hours ago, David said:

Here’s a thought: what’s the point of engaging with him and seeking an answer if you’re simply going to accuse him of lying when he doesn’t give you the response you’re after?

The fact that he’s taken the time to respond says a great deal. He isn’t obliged to do so at all. I’d bet that most club CEOs wouldn’t even have bothered to read your email.

He replied to me when I emailed him over something - I think he's pretty hands on - to be fair other Motherwell ceos have been too 

[Spiderpig]

3 hours ago, David said:

You’re completely entitled to your opinion, but you don’t have the actual figures. I’m more inclined to trust the CEO, who has access to the attendance data and reports from various stadium staff and so on.

You don't need attendance data ffs, Roy Orbiston could have seen that the stand was overcrowded, but strangely the stewards etc did not. Every stairway especially on the bottom tier was rammed, as were the exit passages, it's an accident waiting to happen and the club seem to be doing feck all to prevent it, that's two Celtic games in a row now that this has happened.

 

[David]

14 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

You don't need attendance data ffs, Roy Orbiston could have seen that the stand was overcrowded, but strangely the stewards etc did not. Every stairway especially on the bottom tier was rammed, as were the exit passages, it's an accident waiting to happen and the club seem to be doing feck all to prevent it, that's two Celtic games in a row now that this has happened.

So, do you think there were people without tickets in the away section?

[grizzlyg]

I have to be honest and say I didn't really notice, I was actually watching the game 🤪,  certainly couldn't notice the top tier from my seat

[texanwellfan]

Perhaps something is being overlooked or maybe it was all fine as the CEO says. 

[texanwellfan]

Don’t know the capacity for the stand but if it’s a real Concern then the club could reduce it and say that “in the interests of safety, we are reducing the capacity of the stand for all visiting teams to xxxx amount”. 
 Of course it might only affect Celtic and Rangers (perhaps a city team in a very good year) but clearly our statement is addressed to all teams 😀

[gaz7]

It sounds crazy to suggest our CEO is lying but certainly not impossible.  The response to steelboy is maybe the information he has received from others within the club in charge of those matters. However during game it looked overcrowded and watching video clips from skysports after it suggested mass overcrowding so I am going to believe my own eyes and not listen to what someone else says.

[wellgirl]

47 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

It sounds crazy to suggest our CEO is lying but certainly not impossible.  The response to steelboy is maybe the information he has received from others within the club in charge of those matters. However during game it looked overcrowded and watching video clips from skysports after it suggested mass overcrowding so I am going to believe my own eyes and not listen to what someone else says.

What reason does Brian Caldwell have to lie? That's quite a big accusation 

 

[wellgirl]

5 hours ago, steelboy said:

The CEO who recommended we accept Barmack's takeover bid and banned young Motherwell fans from the ground without doing any due diligence.

I will not be taking his word for anything over what I can see with my eyes. 

 

 

That has absolutely fuck all to do with the matter you emailed him about. The square root of fuck all. 

 

 

[David]

1 hour ago, gaz7 said:

It sounds crazy to suggest our CEO is lying but certainly not impossible.

You're right, it does sound crazy. 

It’s much more likely that ticket sales were well within capacity, and that some Celtic fans who had purchased tickets for the top tier decided they were not happy with the view and chose to watch the game from the bottom tier instead, leading to overcrowding there. 

Which is exactly what Brian Caldwell says in his email. The migration from top tier to bottom is an issue that will need to be addressed I think.

[santheman]

3 hours ago, wellgirl said:

It's actually not that easy to go through the turnstiles two at a time. It happened to me once in several years of being a steward. It's a small space and not easy to do. As other people have said they got in by kicking fire exit doors open. 

That's what happened last time so why not put a couple of cops on each door. There were enough of them standing at the side of the stand long before the game started scratching their arses doing nothing.

Hopefully lessons have been learned and it doesn't happen a 3rd time because you can be sure the SPL will be looking for answers if they're not already.

[joewarkfanclub]

45 minutes ago, David said:

You're right, it does sound crazy. 

It’s much more likely that ticket sales were well within capacity, and that some Celtic fans who had purchased tickets for the top tier decided they were not happy with the view and chose to watch the game from the bottom tier instead, leading to overcrowding there. 

Which is exactly what Brian Caldwell says in his email. The migration from top tier to bottom is an issue that will need to be addressed I think.

I dont think for a minute that Brian Caldwell is lying. He is making a response with the data available. Its good to hear that preventative measures were in place, as it protects the club, but the stand was clearly overcrowded.

There were no huge empty spaces in the top tier. In fact there were fans standing on the stairwells up there too.

Given that you couldnt actually see any of the stairwells on the bottom tier, there would have to have been huge gaps in the top tier for migration to be the only problem. Something clearly doesnt add up.

I think the matter requires further examination.

[wellgirl]

8 minutes ago, santheman said:

That's what happened last time so why not put a couple of cops on each door. There were enough of them standing at the side of the stand long before the game started scratching their arses doing nothing.

Hopefully lessons have been learned and it doesn't happen a 3rd time because you can be sure the SPL will be looking for answers if they're not already.

I don't disagree with you. But this isn't Motherwells fault 

I'm sure these fans will cause damage everywhere they go. Im very much of the view that we should cut their allocation 

[Larkhall Dosser]

7 hours ago, santheman said:

Caldwell reply makes perfect sense and glad that more measures have been put in place.

Maybe an additional measure could be to put stewards on the access stairs so that those with tickets for the upper level are directed there and not allowed to the lower level. Easier said than done though.

Was that not one of the findings that came out of the Hillsborough Enquiry. Im not comparing the pens at Hillsborough to the lower deck of the south stand, but surely the principal would be the same. Was it not stated that had police or stewards been in a position to stop access to the pen where most of the deaths occured that maybe not as many fans would have walked/ran in and made things more crowded when the inevitable happened. perhaps more robust stewarding at the top of the stairwells would have stopped fans from the upper tier coming down. Bottom line is if something had happened and people had been hurt or killed, then who would get the blame.  The club would. Especially when it was evident to everyone not in the stand that you couldnt see the stairs for fans.  So how a certain invidual couldnt see that lower deck was definitely overcrowded beats me.

[Spiderpig]

11 hours ago, David said:

So, do you think there were people without tickets in the away section?

I'm giving the club the benefit of the doubt and assuming they are not selling 5,500 tickets for a 5,000 capacity stand so yes I do. The green uglies have previous for it, so I suspect another emergency exit or two has been forced open, and nothing done to prevent it.

[Kmcalpin]

17 hours ago, steelboy said:

In fact I've just got a response from him:

"Many thanks for your email and hope you are well.....

The migration did cause some issues with Celtic fans on the stairwells however it was decided in conjunction with the Police that to clear the stairs would inflame the situation and be more of a risk to fan and staff safety."

Just what I thought. Its down to policing. The club and stewards have little say. They cannot enforce crowd control measures; thats down to Police Scotland. This is standard policing tactics nowadays from Lands End to John o' Groats. If the crowd is large enough stand back and do nothing - don't antagonise them. Afterwards, for PR reasons they may want to identify a few culprits but then again maybe not. If the club took unilateral action during the game Police Scotland would be most displeased. This situation has gone on at Fir Park, and in other stadia for years. Its nothing new.

Might is right. If the crowd is large enough they can more or less does as they want, without fear of interference. 

[gaz7]

18 hours ago, wellgirl said:

What reason does Brian Caldwell have to lie? That's quite a big accusation 

 

I didn't say he was lying. I was commenting on other posters. However people in his position no matter who they work for can be let's say economical with the truth. Keeping the peace so to speak.

[gaz7]

17 hours ago, David said:

You're right, it does sound crazy. 

It’s much more likely that ticket sales were well within capacity, and that some Celtic fans who had purchased tickets for the top tier decided they were not happy with the view and chose to watch the game from the bottom tier instead, leading to overcrowding there. 

Which is exactly what Brian Caldwell says in his email. The migration from top tier to bottom is an issue that will need to be addressed I think.

Ticket sales no doubt would have been as required . But in my view there was more than that in ground as no spaces in either top or bottom tier or either of aisles.

[wellgirl]

6 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

Ticket sales no doubt would have been as required . But in my view there was more than that in ground as no spaces in either top or bottom tier or either of aisles.

Surely if people kicked open a door as someone else suggested earlier - we would have known about it - because the last time it happened it was filmed and put on social media 

[wellgirl]

6 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Just what I thought. Its down to policing. The club and stewards have little say. They cannot enforce crowd control measures; thats down to Police Scotland. This is standard policing tactics nowadays from Lands End to John o' Groats. If the crowd is large enough stand back and do nothing - don't antagonise them. Afterwards, for PR reasons they may want to identify a few culprits but then again maybe not. If the club took unilateral action during the game Police Scotland would be most displeased. This situation has gone on at Fir Park, and in other stadia for years. Its nothing new.

Might is right. If the crowd is large enough they can more or less does as they want, without fear of interference. 

Im not disagreeing with you here but speaking as someone who stewarded for a few years including at Fir Park crowd control is very much part of a stewards role. They absolutely can enforce crowd control measures and if they are being prevented from doing so that's a huge concern 

[0Neils40yarder]

Brian Caldwell, in my opinion, is doing a very good job in his early days at the Club...comes across well, is engaging with fans and the community, he's moving to get players tied down on longer contracts...

...but he's kidding nobody (apart from David and Wellgirl), that the South Stand wasn't overcrowded with they manky gits...why would he 'lie'? 

 

Maybe he's getting duff info from whoever collates our safety data...maybe by admitting there were issues could see the club in hot water and he is working on how to combat their next visit behind the scenes...who knows, but this will bite us on the bahookie if we allow it to continue. 

[wellgirl]

19 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

Brian Caldwell, in my opinion, is doing a very good job in his early days at the Club...comes across well, is engaging with fans and the community, he's moving to get players tied down on longer contracts...

...but he's kidding nobody (apart from David and Wellgirl), that the South Stand wasn't overcrowded with they manky gits...why would he 'lie'? 

 

Maybe he's getting duff info from whoever collates our safety data...maybe by admitting there were issues could see the club in hot water and he is working on how to combat their next visit behind the scenes...who knows, but this will bite us on the bahookie if we allow it to continue. 

Why would the club sell more tickets to a section than it can hold safely? As I said previously - someone else said that the thought a door had been kicked in - but there's nothing to evidence that. So why would Motherwell fc sell 500 more tickets than the stand can hold? It's not going to make that much in extra income. 

Surely if you buy a ticket online once the stand is sold out that's it. There isn't any evidence that we let 500 people in who shouldn't have been there - it's all conjecture 

BTW you are completely right that there shouldn't be people over crowding the stairwells - but that's a stewarding issue and if they are being prevented from doing their jobs something is wrong - and if the suggestion is that the fans were just left there incase they kicked off - that's also completely unacceptable.