The CEO’s monthly chat

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

As for taking no action as alleged per police advice, the club are effectively sanctioning unsafe conditions, would the police take responsibility if a serious incident had occurred?

In short, No Allan.

[David]

On 11/15/2024 at 10:07 PM, Spiderpig said:

I still think that explanation is very suspect Dave, there did not look to be enough spare seats in the top tier to explain the " migration theory" to the lower stand, two of the top tier stairways were also rammed.

Brian Caldwell being told inaccurate numbers then? 

[Spiderpig]

5 hours ago, David said:

Brian Caldwell being told inaccurate numbers then? 

Well according to him there was 200 tickets not used apparently, they must have been for the hospitality boxes as I struggled to see one spare seat never mind 200.

All I'm saying is that the "migration theory" sounds implausible given what everyone could see. Thats two Celtic games in a row there has been highly visible overcrowding so something is not right.

[David]

11 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

Well according to him there was 200 tickets not used apparently, they must have been for the hospitality boxes as I struggled to see one spare seat never mind 200.

All I'm saying is that the "migration theory" sounds implausible given what everyone could see. Thats two Celtic games in a row there has been highly visible overcrowding so something is not right.

I don't mean that as me saying you're talking nonsense, it's a legitimate question. Because it can only mean one of two things. 

Either Brian Caldwell has been given false information and is being lied to by someone on the club staff. Or, he was given the correct figures and is choosing to bullshit the fans.

I'm not entirely sure either is plausible. I think it's probably more likely that us fans, sitting in various areas of the stadium with differing viewpoints and angles, are likely getting it wrong. Just my personal opinion.

[Kmcalpin]

57 minutes ago, David said:

I don't mean that as me saying you're talking nonsense, it's a legitimate question. Because it can only mean one of two things. 

Either Brian Caldwell has been given false information and is being lied to by someone on the club staff. Or, he was given the correct figures and is choosing to bullshit the fans.

I'm coming at this with a fresh pair of eyes as I wasn't at the game and never witnessed the South Stand crowd.

Is it as clear cut as that? Is there not a 3rd possibility of the actual entrance figures being incorrect without a club employee knowing?

[David]

16 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Is it as clear cut as that? Is there not a 3rd possibility of the actual entrance figures being incorrect without a club employee knowing?

I don't think so, no. We'll know how many tickets were sold for that section, and will also have every single individual who scanned their ticket at the turnstile, no? 

Unless people are sneaking in somewhere, which is would open up a whole new line of questioning.

[dennyc]

 

My thoughts are that if everybody is standing up, whether it be top or bottom of the stand, it is impossible to say for certain how many seats are vacant. You can see folk standing in the stairs right enough, creating a health and safety issue. But if turnstile records show that there were 200 empty spaces then that is more likely to be an accurate figure than some random guesswork.

My interpretation of what Caldwell actually did or did not say. 

He did not say that the number of Celtic fans meant they could do as they pleased. He did say that the Police and Security team, faced with a situation,  decided that clearing the congestion and returning folk to their correct seats was not a practical option given the numbers involved and taking into account safety issues. If the Police were prepared to accept that non action, are we really saying the Club should have overruled them? I assume the Police Match Commander has the final say? If the Club had gone against that instruction, I wonder who would have been liable for any resulting injuries.

Caldwell did accept that there was an issue with fans electing to go bottom tier despite having upper tier tickets. That is an issue that must be addressed by him and the Club and should have been thought about ahead of this game. Had it been, we would not be having this conversation. But it clearly wasn't. He also said that First Aiders were able to access the stairs so that aspect was covered. 

At the end of the day, I believe the Police made the call and it was the correct one given the situation they and the stewards were faced with. Unlike last time there was no evidence of exit doors being forced open or stewards/police assaulted to allow non ticket holders access. But lessons need to be learned and the Club Security team, aided by the Police, must have a system in place to ensure visiting fans can only access the area for which they hold a valid ticket.

Tynecastle has a similar issue regards upper and lower tier ticketing but from what I witnessed when we visited last season, their stewards/police intervened before overcrowding became an issue. Nobody was allowed to stand on the stairs either. Although that meant Motherwell fans with upper tier tickets had to move elsewhere, under protest. Easier to do though with a few hundred compared to several thousand.

I think we should be relieved no injuries resulted but at the same time look to the Club to ensure the ticketing situation is not repeated. However it is impossible to stop 4000 or so fans from standing up if they want to. I also think the Police and League Authorities will have the same outlook.

 

 

[Spiderpig]

2 hours ago, dennyc said:

Although that meant Motherwell fans with upper tier tickets had to move elsewhere, under protest. Easier to do though with a few hundred compared to several thousand.

Therin lies the problem, the football authorities, club officials, Stewards, even I daresay the police are all shit scared of upsetting the Blue and Green uglies, so they do feck all in situations like the one we saw at the Celtic game.

Visible overcrowding, thousands of fans standing (when individuals in the POD were being told to sit down), etc it's a blatant disregard of safety guidelines so as not to upset the uglies.

I live in hope that one day the other 40 clubs in Scotland will grow a set and finally demand changes on the way the game in this country is governed to remove the influence that the bigot brothers have.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

Therin lies the problem, the football authorities, club officials, Stewards, even I daresay the police are all shit scared of upsetting the Blue and Green uglies, so they do feck all in situations like the one we saw at the Celtic game.

Visible overcrowding, thousands of fans standing (when individuals in the POD were being told to sit down), etc it's a blatant disregard of safety guidelines so as not to upset the uglies.

I live in hope that one day the other 40 clubs in Scotland will grow a set and finally demand changes on the way the game in this country is governed to remove the influence that the bigot brothers have.

I agree with that and would love it if we refused entry to their fans.  But that's not going to happen. Other Club Boards are not going to demand change either and we know the football authorities will continue to turn a blind eye. Strict liability will never happen in Scotland. Two Clubs will ensure any effort to introduce it in fails.

The only thing that seems possible is that their numbers at away games could be reduced. Hearts and Hibs have gone down that route I think, and got pelters from the Glasgow media. But Hearts and Hibs can fill the empty seats with their own fans. We cannot. And remember we were the bad guys when Burrows restricted the number of Rangers' fans at the play off game. Not that I care about that as anybody aware of the background knows Motherwell were justified in digging their heels in.

So given that reality, what would you do on a match day? Refuse to kick off? Abandon the game? Forfeit the game? Risk a riot and injuries by wading in? As far as I can see all Motherwell (and the Police) can do is ensure fans head to the area they have a ticket for and ensure only those fans with valid tickets make it through the turnstile. Beyond that what would you do? It's a genuine question as I am struggling to find a solution. 

I also agree it is a numbers thing but I think the same approach would be taken if it were 4000 Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts fans in the away stand. And dare I say it, if we had 4000 fans away at Paisley. Maybe that's why some Clubs have restricted OF fans to 500? tickets. To make control manageable?