Motherwell v St Mirren 28/09/2024

[steelboy]

2 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

 

Casy took one for the team, he made a brilliant save to stop the goal and Oxborough done the same to save the pen.

That's exactly what Souttar just did.

[steelboy]

https://x.com/ScotlandSky/status/1840359206660067460

 

[mio]

2 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Neil McCann was adamant it was a red for Casey on Sportscene last night but on the commentary for this game didn't even mention that it could be a potential card.

Last night Alistair Johnston blatantly handled it in the box at 0-0 and they just laughed it off. 

Collum's new rules obviously include giving the Old Firm even more advantages.

What chance do we have with refereeing consistency when the pundits do exactly the same. 
I do think Casey’s was a red by the way, so if that was a red, the the same should apply with souttar. Ive no doubt if it was a hibs player he’d be off.

[Spiderpig]

2 minutes ago, steelboy said:

That's exactly what Souttar just did.

Correct, definite pen but he did not deny a certain goal, Butland had the ball covered if Souttar had missed it so no red card required. 

[steelboy]

8 minutes ago, mio said:

What chance do we have with refereeing consistency when the pundits do exactly the same. 
I do think Casey’s was a red by the way, so if that was a red, the the same should apply with souttar. Ive no doubt if it was a hibs player he’d be off.

They're both within a yard of the player hitting the shot so i'd say a red card is harsh.

[joewarkfanclub]

3 minutes ago, steelboy said:

https://x.com/ScotlandSky/status/1840359206660067460

 

Havent seen it in real time obviously, but Souttar isnt right on the line and the goalkeeper is behind him.

Is that a certain goalscoring opportunity?

FWIW, I dont think Caseys is that clear cut.

It hits his hand on the line no doubt, but I think there is an argument to be had over whether it was deliberate or whether he made his body bigger.

Personally, I think the answer to both is no, but it may not matter depending on the current wording of the laws surrounding such incidents 

[Onthefringes]

7 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Correct, definite pen but he did not deny a certain goal, Butland had the ball covered if Souttar had missed it so no red card required. 

Casey wasn’t sent off for denying a certain goal. Butland’s positioning counts for nothing when both offences deny a clear goalscoring opportunity… consistency is key.

[weeyin]

2 minutes ago, Onthefringes said:

Casey wasn’t sent off for denying a certain goal. Butland’s positioning counts for nothing when both offences deny a clear goalscoring opportunity… consistency is key.

The IFAB law for the red card is that the handball has to be deliberate:
 

Quote

 

A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of the following offences is sent off:

- denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by committing a deliberate handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)

 

 

I agree consistency is key and there is a case to be made for Casey's intent, but Souttar's didn't look deliberate to me.

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, Onthefringes said:

Casey wasn’t sent off for denying a certain goal. Butland’s positioning counts for nothing when both offences deny a clear goalscoring opportunity… consistency is key.

Consistency is an unknown concept for Scottish referees, I thought the new VAR technology would end all these debates, but it hasn't, all it's done is highlight the fact that the referees are worse than we imagined at times.

[dennyc]

The only difference between the two incidents was the distance from the goal, and that difference was minimal. Both players threw their body at the ball to defend the goal.

Casey deliberately blocked the ball on the line with his arm. Souttar deliberately.......even McCann commented that he moved his arm to the ball......blocked the ball three yards out with his arm. 

Both were deliberate and intended to deny a goal. On that basis, why not both red cards?

Consistency does not exist in Scottish football.

 

 

[David]

3 hours ago, StAndrew7 said:

This is data for the last calendar year from Wyscout on our midfield.

Only midfielder we have playing more forward passes than Davor is Miller and he also has the most defensive successes as well as the best pass completion in a number of areas.

Don't be bringing actual data and stats into it! 

[wellfan]

Scottish refs are and forever will be useless. Collum will talk a good game this season in terms of accountability, but VAR will only continue to expose how useless our officials are, and his apologies won’t materially change anything. 

[joewarkfanclub]

5 hours ago, Onthefringes said:

Casey wasn’t sent off for denying a certain goal. Butland’s positioning counts for nothing when both offences deny a clear goalscoring opportunity… consistency is key.

Why was he sent off then?

It was the reason given on Sportsound after the game.....

[pretzel]

14 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Why was he sent off then?

It was the reason given on Sportsound after the game.....

Bobby Madden gave that reasoning on Instagram that it was because Butland was in a position where he could still make a save, but to me that’s a total cop-out as it looks like the shot is heading into the corner before being blocked by Souttar. It’s mad how you can go from one extreme to another.

Saturday was a great win for us, speaking of Madden it was refreshing to be on the end of some positive decisions for once in a St Mirren game as he seemed to be assigned to a ton of our matches in recent times where he gave them soft penalties (Mugabi fresh air swipe, Brophy running into Sol and McGrath diving but subsequently missing).

[Kmcalpin]

25 minutes ago, pretzel said:

Bobby Madden gave that reasoning on Instagram that it was because Butland was in a position where he could still make a save, but to me that’s a total cop-out as it looks like the shot is heading into the corner before being blocked by Souttar. It’s mad how you can go from one extreme to another.

Saturday was a great win for us, speaking of Madden it was refreshing to be on the end of some positive decisions for once in a St Mirren game as he seemed to be assigned to a ton of our matches in recent times where he gave them soft penalties (Mugabi fresh air swipe, Brophy running into Sol and McGrath diving but subsequently missing).

Butland's positioning is a red herring. The key issue is did the Hibs player have a clear opportunity to score - whether he actually would have or not, and whether Butland would have saved any attempt or not is irrelevant.

You can also add a red card at Paisley, when one of our defenders was hit in the face, not hand, by the ball. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

Just watched the Rangers highlights to see what the fuss is about and......that Hibs penalty is nothing like the one in our game. 

The Souttar one should be a penalty but I don't think it should even be a yellow card. 

Casey's was a flat up save! 🤣

[joewarkfanclub]

15 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Just watched the Rangers highlights to see what the fuss is about and......that Hibs penalty is nothing like the one in our game. 

The Souttar one should be a penalty but I don't think it should even be a yellow card. 

Casey's was a flat up save! 🤣

I dont think both incidents are the same as Souttar is further from goal and Butland is behind him,  but I do think you need to go back and watch Caseys again if you think that was a save.

Its a very similar motion to Souttar in that he throws himself in front of the ball to block it and his arms come up across his chest as a result. No question it hits his hand(s) but he hasnt exactly dived full length and tipped it round the post!

[Kmcalpin]

16 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I dont think both incidents are the same as Souttar is further from goal and Butland is behind him,  but I do think you need to go back and watch Caseys again if you think that was a save.

Its a very similar motion to Souttar in that he throws himself in front of the ball to block it and his arms come up across his chest as a result. No question it hits his hand(s) but he hasnt exactly dived full length and tipped it round the post!

Could a referee reasonably interpret Casey's handball as a genuine attempt to keep his hands in a natural position i.e. not spread his arms as wide as possible or avoid them being in an unnatural position?   

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

Could a referee reasonably interpret Casey's handball as a genuine attempt to keep his hands in a natural position i.e. not spread his arms as wide as possible or avoid them being in an unnatural position?   

Well, I accept I am totally biased.

But for me he looks like he tries to keep his arms close into his chest to avoid making himself bigger. Its not a natural position, but he certainly doesnt spread himself or appear to deliberately handle the ball.

I think thats why its important to know the reason given for the red card and the wording of the current IFAB guidance.

Context is everything in these decisions.

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Well, I accept I am totally biased.

But for me he looks like he tries to keep his arms close into his chest to avoid making himself bigger. Its not a natural position, but he certainly doesnt spread himself or appear to deliberately handle the ball.

I think thats why its important to know the reason given for the red card and the wording of the current IFAB guidance.

Context is everything in these decisions.

My thoughts exactly  

[wellgirl]

Sportscenes John Barnes tweeted that he thought Motherwell should appeal and that it didn't look like a deliberate handball. 

[SteelmaninOZ]

What a. Keeper we have 
 

 

[texanwellfan]

21 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

Sportscenes John Barnes tweeted that he thought Motherwell should appeal and that it didn't look like a deliberate handball. 

I thought I recalled that they added another match ban if you appealed and failed? If that’s the case I wouldn’t appeal but if it’s just a small sum of money I would appeal. I really think he tried to stop the ball with his body. I haven’t looked at any replays but my impression at the time was that he moved his hand into his body. So if he hadn’t drew his hand in the ball would have hit his body 

[weeyin]

I didn't think it was deliberate when I watched it in real time. Having see the replays a few times, I still think he instinctively stopped the ball with his hand.

I'd actually prefer a rule change for this situation, though, rather than rely on referees' (or VAR's) interpretation of intent.

If any player stops the ball crossing the line with their hand, it should count as a goal (like the penalty try in rugby). Even though it would have gone against us at the weekend, I don't think a definite goal prevented by a handball should be penalised by awarding what I believe these days is something like a 66% chance of scoring from the spot.

[joewarkfanclub]

6 minutes ago, weeyin said:

I didn't think it was deliberate when I watched it in real time. Having see the replays a few times, I still think he instinctively stopped the ball with his hand.

I'd actually prefer a rule change for this situation, though, rather than rely on referees' (or VAR's) interpretation of intent.

If any player stops the ball crossing the line with their hand, it should count as a goal (like the penalty try in rugby). Even though it would have gone against us at the weekend, I don't think a definite goal prevented by a handball should be penalised by awarding what I believe these days is something like a 66% chance of scoring from the spot.

You would then immediately get into the subjective opinion of the officials on whether they thought the ball would have crossed the line without the intervention of the handball.

In Caseys incident, Im not sure it would. It would probably have hit him in the chest and come back out.