joewarkfanclub Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 12 minutes ago, steelboy said: None of our midfielders or forwards are good at retaining possession. Our average pass streak (how many passes we play before losing possession) is three. St Johnstone, Hearts, Aberdeen and St Mirren all averaged five against us. Over the 6 league games we have averaged 38% possession which is the worst in the league. We are performing well in both boxes but it's obvious we need to improve our play in the middle of the park. Im hoping that part improves when the likes of Paton, Slattery and Nicholson all return. Of course there is more we could be doing now. I really like what Ive seen of Sparrow. He has a drive and an energy going forward that none of our other midfielders have. My preference would be to play Miller in the deeper role and have Sparrow supporting the front players. But that means SK dropping either Halliday or Davor, and I dont see him doing either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelmaninOZ Posted September 29 Author Report Share Posted September 29 Mr. Cool  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 3 hours ago, steelboy said: I think we might be able to appeal the red card as it wasn't that different from the one where the St Johnstone player handballed on the line at close range at Celtic Park last year which wasn't even a pen. I've no problem with a penalty here but I think it's fair to argue that he was trying to block the ball legally as best he could. Why waste time appealing, watch the sportscene coverage he just about caught the ball that was heading into the net, so a penalty and a red card for preventing a certain goal was the only option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 14 minutes ago, steelboy said: None of our midfielders or forwards are good at retaining possession. Our average pass streak (how many passes we play before losing possession) is three. St Johnstone, Hearts, Aberdeen and St Mirren all averaged five against us. Over the 6 league games we have averaged 38% possession which is the worst in the league. We are performing well in both boxes but it's obvious we need to improve our play in the middle of the park. We set up to play a pretty direct counter attacking style no matter the opposition; I'd not really expect us to be retaining that much of the ball. Aberdeen and Hearts you'd expect that, despite how badly the latter are playing. St Mirren play a different style to us with wingers and it's no surprise they'd have more of the ball than we do. I agree it's a poor show against St Johnstone. On your other point, one of your main criticisms that seems to persist is Davor not playing forward passes, but you openly admit our forwards and his fellow midfielders can't retain possession. Which do you want? If he gives it to Robinson who then loses it immediately we're instantly back defending; if he recycles it backwards or out wide, he's at least removing pressure, even for a brief period of time. The system is on the manager and the job he's asking the players to execute. It's currently working relatively well; I accept improvements can be made on an individual level but they always can, no matter how well we're playing.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelmaninOZ Posted September 29 Author Report Share Posted September 29 And again  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 13 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said: Â On your other point, one of your main criticisms that seems to persist is Davor not playing forward passes, but you openly admit our forwards and his fellow midfielders can't retain possession. Â Â Part of the reason why we can't retain possession is because he's barely involved in the final third which isn't good enough when we are playing with a back 5 and neither of the wingbacks are particularly attacking. It's like playing with 10 men which puts more pressure on everyone else. The best example of this was Livi away last season when we were pathetic first half then as soon as he went off we ran over the top of them. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 12 minutes ago, steelboy said: Part of the reason why we can't retain possession is because he's barely involved in the final third which isn't good enough when we are playing with a back 5 and neither of the wingbacks are particularly attacking. It's like playing with 10 men which puts more pressure on everyone else. The best example of this was Livi away last season when we were pathetic first half then as soon as he went off we ran over the top of them. That's isn't the role he plays though and never has been. You can hammer him as much as you want for not being an effective contributor in the final third but if he's asked to be the holding/sitting midfielder and not be an attacking threat that's not on him. Miller and Halliday there to perform that role so he doesn't have to. If Halliday is shite at it that's not Davor's fault and leaves him even more exposed to criticism and being caught out. He came off against Livi and from what I recall (although I wasn't there, so correct me if I'm wrong) we played a slightly different system when he did; Miller went deeper, I think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 56 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said: Im hoping that part improves when the likes of Paton, Slattery and Nicholson all return. Of course there is more we could be doing now. I really like what Ive seen of Sparrow. He has a drive and an energy going forward that none of our other midfielders have. My preference would be to play Miller in the deeper role and have Sparrow supporting the front players. But that means SK dropping either Halliday or Davor, and I dont see him doing either. This is another issue. Kettlewell doesn't really drop players unless he absolutely has to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 It's not the 1990s. You can't carry a player who contributes so little on the ball these days and if you are also playing 5 defenders as well it'll end up where we are with average possession in the 30s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 4 minutes ago, steelboy said: It's not the 1990s. You can't carry a player who contributes so little on the ball these days and if you are also playing 5 defenders as well it'll end up where we are with average possession in the 30s. *And 4th in the league and in a cup semi final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron_Mcd Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 There's a difference between someone not being a 'creative midfielder' and someone offering absolutely nothing of worth on the ball, with our system we can't afford to carry passengers like we do with Davor. Ideally you drop Miller deeper and drop Davor to the bench to be used for a bit of energy towards the end of a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 3 hours ago, steelboy said: I think we might be able to appeal the red card as it wasn't that different from the one where the St Johnstone player handballed on the line at close range at Celtic Park last year which wasn't even a pen. I've no problem with a penalty here but I think it's fair to argue that he was trying to block the ball legally as best he could. In exactly the same situation John Souttar wasn't even booked. Get the appeal in! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellup83 Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 Just watched John Soutar handball in the 6 yard box preventing a certain goal. No action given other than the penalty. Shambles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 34 minutes ago, steelboy said: It's not the 1990s. You can't carry a player who contributes so little on the ball these days and if you are also playing 5 defenders as well it'll end up where we are with average possession in the 30s. Its the age old dilemma for a club our size. Do we try and play more football at the risk of losing more games. Or do we continue as we are playing more pragmatic, but ultimately winning football. It would be nice if we could play more football and keep winning games, but it doesnt always work out that way. Personally, I think with a few tweaks and the likes of Paton and Slattery coming back into the team we wont be far away. Until then, I think we are stuck with a Davor/Halliday double act. Not my personal preference, but it seems to be SKs....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 Even if it's not SK's preference, he's not going to change it while we're winning games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 21 minutes ago, steelboy said: It's not the 1990s. You can't carry a player who contributes so little on the ball these days and if you are also playing 5 defenders as well it'll end up where we are with average possession in the 30s. I'll concede that point, but there needs to at least be some acknowledgment of the fact Davor isn't the only one who's the issue in the middle of the park. Halliday is just as bad and (I think) worse because he's able to hide in the centre circle. Davor is the one going deep to receive the ball just about every time. I do think Sparrow can be the energy we're missing in the middle for now but he's (rightly) been held back until he's up to speed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 1 minute ago, joewarkfanclub said: Its the age old dilemma for a club our size. Do we try and play more football at the risk of losing more games. Or do we continue as we are playing more pragmatic, but ultimately winning football.  I don't think playing more football will risk us losing more games. The Aberdeen game and to a lesser extent the St Johnstone and Dundee United game showed that we looked a lot better when we were actually trying to play some football. Our good start is pretty much down to Oxborough and Halliday and Miller's set pieces. In the league we are +6 goals if you just count set pieces, penalties and own goals. In the cup the same stat is +5. We haven't conceded a goal from a set piece in the first 12 games of the season which is a huge turnaround from the shambles last year. We probably won't continue like this but at the same time we can easily get better from open play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 13 minutes ago, wellup83 said: Just watched John Soutar handball in the 6 yard box preventing a certain goal. No action given other than the penalty. Shambles. Who was that against? I cant find it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 Just now, joewarkfanclub said: Who was that against? I cant find it They are playing Hibs right now. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 This is data for the last calendar year from Wyscout on our midfield. Only midfielder we have playing more forward passes than Davor is Miller and he also has the most defensive successes as well as the best pass completion in a number of areas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mio Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 13 minutes ago, wellup83 said: Just now, joewarkfanclub said: Who was that against? I cant find it Against hibs. Souttar blocked a shot on the goal line with his arm. Loads of similarities with big Casey but its rules are different at ibrox. Not even booked 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 12 minutes ago, steelboy said: In exactly the same situation John Souttar wasn't even booked. Get the appeal in! How is it the same ffs, souter wasn't red carded so no appeal required. Anyone who thinks Casey should not have been sent off yesterday is talking shite it was a clear handball on the line preventing a certain goal, none of the players complained, VAR confirmed the refs call so the correct decision was made. Why waste money on an appeal that's never going to be upheld. Casy took one for the team, he made a brilliant save to stop the goal and Oxborough done the same to save the pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 1 minute ago, steelboy said: I don't think playing more football will risk us losing more games. The Aberdeen game and to a lesser extent the St Johnstone and Dundee United game showed that we looked a lot better when we were actually trying to play some football. Our good start is pretty much down to Oxborough and Halliday and Miller's set pieces. In the league we are +6 goals if you just count set pieces, penalties and own goals. In the cup the same stat is +5. We haven't conceded a goal from a set piece in the first 12 games of the season which is a huge turnaround from the shambles last year. We probably won't continue like this but at the same time we can easily get better from open play. Thats why I think tweaks to the current set up are the way to go. I think Davor or Halliday are probably fine by themselves just now, at least until Paton and/or Slattery are back. Its both of them together I have an issue with rught now. For me, dropping Miller into his natural position and putting Sparrow into the midfield further forward would allow us to press further up, support the front players and retin the ball more. Unfortunately SK seems to want to use a pecking order in team selection and Sparrow is behind Halliday and Davor in that order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 5 minutes ago, steelboy said: They are playing Hibs right now.  Thats why I cant find it! 😆😆😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 1 minute ago, mio said: Against hibs. Souttar blocked a shot on the goal line with his arm. Loads of similarities with big Casey but its rules are different at ibrox. Not even booked Neil McCann was adamant it was a red for Casey on Sportscene last night but on the commentary for this game didn't even mention that it could be a potential card. Last night Alistair Johnston blatantly handled it in the box at 0-0 and they just laughed it off. Collum's new rules obviously include giving the Old Firm even more advantages. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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