Motherwell v Rangers League Cup Semi final Nov 2/3

[Ya Bezzer!]

On 11/4/2024 at 10:36 AM, Stuwell2 said:

Not going to bother reading all the comments from yesterday as I’ve no doubt most will be along the same lines as my view which is 

Given our injuries it was probably the correct line up. 
Given how poor Rangers have been sitting back was the wrong tactics. Was expecting us to try and run at their defence especially Tavenier, not punt long balls that the two central defenders lapped up leaving our forwards useless - totally pissed off. 
As usual with us when  we are involved in big games our youth and inexperienced squad don’t handle it well. 
Substitutions - WTF?

It will be anathema to most Motherwell supporters to give any praise to Rangers but I thought Rangers were actually pretty good off the ball.

Their press was good and they won every aerial duel.  

They made it difficult to get any flow going and they took Miller out the game.

On the ball they are still way below where you'd expect a team with Rangers resources to be but the ugly side of the game they did well.

However a lot of Motherwell fans simply won't accept that the oppositions performance had something to do with our performance.

 

[StAndrew7]

7 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

It will be anathema to most Motherwell supporters to give any praise to Rangers but I thought Rangers were actually pretty good off the ball.

Their press was good and they won every aerial duel.  

They made it difficult to get any flow going and they took Miller out the game.

On the ball they are still way below where you'd expect a team with Rangers resources to be but the ugly side of the game they did well.

However a lot of Motherwell fans simply won't accept that the oppositions performance had something to do with our performance.

 

I totally agree. I do think that's what is so frustrating about it; they were absolutely there for the taking and we stuck to a rigid counter-attacking style with a really ineffectual press on their defenders.

They definitely went up a gear in the second half. They took Miller out the game completely by sticking Barron on him at all times and doubling up when he was on the ball. That completely nullified our game plan because we had no other creative outlet, particularly after Kettlewell's mind-boggling double sub.

 

[mfc88]

4 hours ago, robsterwood said:

Budgets matter significantly. A higher ranked and higher budget generally wins statistics show it. One of Thier players was on bench and cost 6 mil. We rely on free transfers. Loans and budget buys. Speculate rather than buy known quality that they can afford. I do however think we could have got closer to them. Technique showed on the day also. 

Yeah teams budget is an important point in the big picture. But its not as black and white as that, and had we given a good account of ourselves, I'd accept that point.

But we didn't play in a way that made us test rangers as best we could to make them earn that game. That is our failing in my opinion, and we shouldn't use rangers' budget as an excuse for our failings, otherwise we we are beaten before a ball is kicked.

I can totally respect a different view of the game, but that is how I see it. As i said, other recent finals/ semis I've seen us lose out on (thinking of the 2 celtic games in 17/18 as the freshest in mind), I have left the stadium with a totally different feeling of disappointment... not with the feeling that we fell short tactically.
 

[robsterwood]

7 hours ago, mfc88 said:

Yeah teams budget is an important point in the big picture. But its not as black and white as that, and had we given a good account of ourselves, I'd accept that point.

But we didn't play in a way that made us test rangers as best we could to make them earn that game. That is our failing in my opinion, and we shouldn't use rangers' budget as an excuse for our failings, otherwise we we are beaten before a ball is kicked.

I can totally respect a different view of the game, but that is how I see it. As i said, other recent finals/ semis I've seen us lose out on (thinking of the 2 celtic games in 17/18 as the freshest in mind), I have left the stadium with a totally different feeling of disappointment... not with the feeling that we fell short tactically.
 

Agree. Your right we could have tested them more. Rather than let them have possession and space, we should have pressed them. Your right in that they didn't have to work hard for the win. Was very disappointed, knowing we can play better and should have set up differently.

[wellfan]

6 hours ago, mfc88 said:

and we shouldn't use rangers' budget as an excuse for our failings, otherwise we we are beaten before a ball is kicked.

Probably one of the most cogent points made in the aftermath of the game. A massive opportunity was wasted because of the predictably poor overall approach to the game and more crazy in-game decisions.

We weren’t well beaten. We didn’t put up a valiant fight. We weren’t robbed. Yes, they had to work and have a bigger budget, but anything is possible in a knockout game yet we more or less gifted them the win before a ball was kicked. It was so predictable. 

To get knocked out of a domestic cup competition in that fashion is absolutely scunnering and I refuse to accept that a loss such as that is acceptable just because Joe Bloggs highlights that we’re currently 5th in the league in Autumn or that the manager helped to develop some players last season.

The manager shat the bed, which we all seem to agree on, and the Club and fans deserve better when these opportunities come around. I’m sure that a manager without fear of the Old Firm and with a modicum of tactical nous about them would’ve produced a better showing against that Rangers team.

Back to league business now, which is quite good at the moment, so let’s see how my favourite donkey does for the rest of the season. 

[santheman]

2 minutes ago, wellfan said:

 

We weren’t well beaten. We didn’t put up a valiant fight. We weren’t robbed. Yes, they had to work and have a bigger budget, but anything is possible in a knockout game yet we more or less gifted them the win before a ball was kicked. It was so predictable. 

 

 

Not sure I'm getting your take on that.

How did we gift them the win before a ball was kicked?

Not having a go just interested in your thought process.

 

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

Not sure I'm getting your take on that.

How did we gift them the win before a ball was kicked?

Not having a go just interested in your thought process.

It’s probably already been done to a death by me and others, but simply our game plan was shit and one that generally always plays into the hands of the bigger/better team. And it didn’t have to be that way because that Rangers team are on the ropes these days, but we allowed them to dominate the game with our negative standoffish approach.

We didn’t play to exploit our strengths; instead, we played to contain them and to feed off scraps. It obviously backfired because they eventually wore us down, which we could all see was coming, particularly after the baffling substitutions and tactical changes were implemented.

It’s done now, though. Time to move on and hope that lessons have been learned. Again. 

[santheman]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

It’s probably already been done to a death by me and others, but simply our game plan was shit and one that generally always plays into the hands of the bigger/better team. And it didn’t have to be that way because that Rangers team are on the ropes these days, but we allowed them to dominate the game with our negative standoffish approach.

We didn’t play to exploit our strengths; instead, we played to contain them and to feed off scraps. It obviously backfired because they eventually wore us down, which we could all see was coming, particularly after the baffling substitutions and tactical changes were implemented.

It’s done now, though. Time to move on and hope that lessons have been learned. Again. 

Interesting

Our game plan certainly fell apart during the match but still don't get why you think we gifted them the win before a ball was kicked.

Anyway as you say all in the past and Saturday is another day.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-statement-celtic-motherwell-and-rangers

[Kmcalpin]

I totally get this and we can't say that we weren't warned. However, presumably it would have been perfectly ok to set off pyrotechnics outside the stadium? If the SPFL is going down the road of strict liability, then what about other common offences inside stadia, for example sectarian chanting? 

[Spiderpig]

23 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I totally get this and we can't say that we weren't warned. However, presumably it would have been perfectly ok to set off pyrotechnics outside the stadium? If the SPFL is going down the road of strict liability, then what about other common offences inside stadia, for example sectarian chanting? 

You know that won't happen Dave, there is no chance that either of the ugly sisters will ever be served notices of complaints from the SPFL, SFA or any other footballing authority in Scotland for the bigoted bile they spout at every game.

It would not surprise me at all if Motherwell were the only club fined as none lkes to upset the uglies.

[santheman]

H34 Each Club must ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable.

 

So what more can clubs do that is "reasonably practicable".

The stewards instructed to carry out body cavity searches on every fan instead of the usual frisk and pat down?

Are the security company providing the stewards not as culpable as the clubs?

All clubs can reasonably be expected to do is appeal to fans not to do it and potentially ban any caught doing so.

If we get fined and/or sanctioned in any way I hope the club tells us exactly what they are and the consequences for the club and hopefully that might get through to the perpetrators.

Personally I don't have a problem with pyro but when it gets to this stage then I  think the ones doing it need to take a wee step back and think about whether its worth it in light of the potential backlash and costs.

[Kmcalpin]

22 minutes ago, santheman said:

H34 Each Club must ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable.

So what more can clubs do that is "reasonably practicable".

The stewards instructed to carry out body cavity searches on every fan instead of the usual frisk and pat down?

Are the security company providing the stewards not as culpable as the clubs?

All clubs can reasonably be expected to do is appeal to fans not to do it and potentially ban any caught doing so.

If we get fined and/or sanctioned in any way I hope the club tells us exactly what they are and the consequences for the club and hopefully that might get through to the perpetrators.

Personally I don't have a problem with pyro but when it gets to this stage then I  think the ones doing it need to take a wee step back and think about whether its worth it in light of the potential backlash and costs.

Great post. Can I ask which organisation employed the stewards?

If MFC had reasonably said to the SPFL, "In addition to your stewarding, can we also employ our own stewards as a second line of defence (as we could be held liable)", what would the response have been?

[santheman]

4 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Great post. Can I ask which organisation employed the stewards?

If MFC had reasonably said to the SPFL, "In addition to your stewarding, can we also employ our own stewards as a second line of defence (as we could be held liable)", what would the response have been?

I'm assuming that it would either have been the SPFL as the tournament organisers or the SFA as the stadium landlords who employed the security company who provide the stewards so you could argue that they are as culpable as the clubs.

Not sure what company was used but can't be that many in Scotland.

[Spiderpig]

41 minutes ago, santheman said:

 

Personally I don't have a problem with pyro but when it gets to this stage then I  think the ones doing it need to take a wee step back and think about whether its worth it in light of the potential backlash and costs.

Potential backlash, someone is going to get seriously injured with the use of these pyros, there's no grey area here, it's against the rules of the football authorities and against the law of the land, so the club has no complaints.

How many fines or sanctions does the club need to get before action is taken against those responsible.

[MJC]

No complaints over this but it’s the club that stand to suffer as a result of the actions of a selfish minority of louts.
 

If we are fined the ‘Block E’ mob should be made to club together and pay it.

[Orinoco]

So pyros by the clubs, ie Aberdeen recently and authorities at cup final, international games are fine, but if fans do it, it's a big no no and fine. Either there is a outright ban, or you allow it. 

As someone said who employed the stewards? Are they not liable for not doing their job correctly.

Scottish football have more pressing issues to deal with, ie dodgy club ownerships, clubs financially struggling, sectarian singing etc etc. 

[Mccus28]

18 hours ago, Orinoco said:

So pyros by the clubs, ie Aberdeen recently and authorities at cup final, international games are fine, but if fans do it, it's a big no no and fine. Either there is a outright ban, or you allow it. 

As someone said who employed the stewards? Are they not liable for not doing their job correctly.

Scottish football have more pressing issues to deal with, ie dodgy club ownerships, clubs financially struggling, sectarian singing etc etc. 

Whilst I understand the point you are trying to make, there are clear differences between professional pyro shows put on by the SFA and clubs as a spectacle and random football fans getting pyro off the internet and smuggling them into games to let off in the middle of thousands of fans.

With regards stewarding, these items in some cases are small and fairly easy to get into a game, the only way to fully check would be strip searches which clearly arent proportionate or indeed legal in these cases, so instead of blaming stewards who have limited search powers we really should be blaming those who are bringing the items into the stadium.

I know you dont see it as a massive problem but lets not forget around the world, people have had their hands blown off and received horror burns amongst other injuries which is why they are illegal inside a football stand.

Now that the club will be fined each time they are used, id urge people to get a grip and just dont bring them into the stadium!!!!

[MJC]

I wonder if we’ll see a banner or two from the Well Bois today in ‘protest’ at the SPFL’s unfair treatment of the club due to their own actions?? And given that St.Mirren away usually brings a few flashpoints with them and the stewards it’ll be interesting to see if they can actually behave otherwise any ‘protest’ will just look futile.

[mio]

58 minutes ago, MJC said:

I wonder if we’ll see a banner or two from the Well Bois today in ‘protest’ at the SPFL’s unfair treatment of the club due to their own actions?? And given that St.Mirren away usually brings a few flashpoints with them and the stewards it’ll be interesting to see if they can actually behave otherwise any ‘protest’ will just look futile.

I would prefer they all chip in and pay the club fine.

[Onthefringes]

1 hour ago, MJC said:

I wonder if we’ll see a banner or two from the Well Bois today in ‘protest’ at the SPFL’s unfair treatment of the club due to their own actions?? And given that St.Mirren away usually brings a few flashpoints with them and the stewards it’ll be interesting to see if they can actually behave otherwise any ‘protest’ will just look futile.

Sure, you’ll be first on here to post about it you anal retentive.

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, Mccus28 said:

With regards stewarding, these items in some cases are small and fairly easy to get into a game, the only way to fully check would be strip searches which clearly arent proportionate or indeed legal in these cases.....

Yes, this is true, irrespective of the venue or who is in charge. However the SPFL (or SFA) has a bit of a cheek in this instance and is being hypocritical. The 3 clubs would have had little or no control over security at Hampden. It would have been 95% + responsible itself. So why charge the clubs concerned? The wider issue of strict liability - the SPFL/SFA cannot pick and choose which issues for which to invoke strict liability and we all know what thats about.

There is also a wider issue about pyrotechnics, which is one for the Government to address, if it has the backbone. They are not just an issue for Football but for society as a whole. Its not ok to use them inside a stadium but what about in the streets outside? What about their use in crowded and packed demonstrations and marches, which have nothing to do wth football? 

We have to have a clear set of guidelines or laws to ensure consistency and fairness buit not only that, they have to be fairly applied.  

[Ya Bezzer!]

If there are 4,500 fans at a home match there are probably a 100 or less that are causing all these problems, pyro and other wise.

Just ban them.  Get rid of them.  They are costing the club it's reputation and possible fines, so just take a hard line and get them to fuck.

Problem solved.

Why should we pander to a tiny minority in our fan base and let them cost the club money and potentially harm themselves or others?

They have been warned time and time again and they don't give a damn so just stop fucking around and deal with it.

 

[robsterwood]

I agree it was Hampden organising game and security.  They must have some responsibility. Also think we should have been refunded as team didn't show up.

[twistandshout1983]

Time to cut the pyrotechnics out , just costing our club fines they shouldn’t have to pay in the first place .

Guaranteed if the club is fined the same people will do it again