Interesting stats on

[Happy Dosser]

2 hours ago, weeyin said:

Sadly, for the players involved, we can point to countless examples of youngsters who have left for the "big move" and ended up as bit players in youth teams down south (or with the OF) before returning to a lower league team in Scotland.

McAlear, Mckinstry and Hastie are all recent examples.

It's no coincidence that Max Johnston and Lennon Miller both have dads who are ex-players. They are in a much better position to offer career and development advice than well-meaning parents with no experience who are excited when a "big" team comes in with an offer; especially if it's a team from the OF that they support.

 

For that reason I'm hoping Lennon goes abroad when he leaves us. Max seems to be doing pretty well now and even sampling CL football.

[David]

Steve Clarke on the state of young players in our game: 

“At some stage, people have to sit down, a think tank or whatever, and try something a bit different that we haven’t tried before to see if we can improve it. If we keep doing what we’re doing, it’s not going to get better. They produce a lot of good young players (Croatia) and allow them to play a lot of games in their own country before they move out, which is a really good grounding and something we can maybe get better at here. And they show a pathway for the young players. There’s a lot we need to try to change if we want to get better. We can get to that level but we still have a lot of work to do.”

Steve Clarke on the highly touted Lennon Miller, who's 18, has played a lot of games in his own country: 

"He’s another young one that everybody wants to hype and push. It’s important to let young players grow. Let’s just allow Lennon a little bit of time and space to grow up at Motherwell."

Honestly man.

[gaz7]

2 hours ago, wellfan said:

Nothing. I think you've misread. My point is that he's basically asking for better exposure/development of Scottish U21 players, which flies in the face of his recent bollox reasoning for not calling up Scotland's most talented U21 player, Lennon Miller. The guy is an arrogant wanker. 

I'm not clarkes biggest fan either but he is obviously trying to protect miller. Plus he's called up doak( scotlands most talented u21) conway doig johnstone barron in last few games who are all performing at a higher level  than miller so I think you are being harsh with the u21 shout

Does anyone think at this minute in time miller is performing better than any of the midfielders picked. I for one certainly don't.

[David]

I'd disagree that Doak is Scotland's most talented under-21 player. I'd also be interested to know what that's based on? His ten games for Middlesbrough in the Championship? His one and a half games worth of minutes he played for Liverpool last season?

Don't get me wrong, he could be very good, but we don't really know yet. If we're honest he was picked for Scotland because Liverpool signed him. That's generally the way Clarke operates.

[gaz7]

3 minutes ago, David said:

I'd disagree that Doak is Scotland's most talented under-21 player. I'd also be interested to know what that's based on? His ten games for Middlesbrough in the Championship? His one and a half games worth of minutes he played for Liverpool last season?

Don't get me wrong, he could be very good, but we don't really know yet. If we're honest he was picked for Scotland because Liverpool signed him. That's generally the way Clarke operates.

All about opinions but in games I've saw him in for scotland u21s he has been best player on park every time. Cameos for Liverpool were gd against top class internationals. Now for boro he is involved in goals every week and was not bad in full team last 2 games.

There's also a reason Liverpool signed him and it's obviously because he's quite gd. 

It's easy to slag clarke and I can as well for some things but I think he's handling miller well at this stage

[0Neils40yarder]

20 minutes ago, David said:

I'd disagree that Doak is Scotland's most talented under-21 player. I'd also be interested to know what that's based on? His ten games for Middlesbrough in the Championship? His one and a half games worth of minutes he played for Liverpool last season?

Don't get me wrong, he could be very good, but we don't really know yet. If we're honest he was picked for Scotland because Liverpool signed him. That's generally the way Clarke operates.

Doak operates in a position where we literally have no one else.

[wellfan]

3 hours ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

I actually don't know what he's said to justify Lennons non-inclusion but I'm not surprised he's not been called up...if he was a right back, goalie, central defender, striker or winger I'd be raging but central midfield is Scotlands strongest position by a country mile.

1 hour ago, gaz7 said:

I'm not clarkes biggest fan either but he is obviously trying to protect miller. Plus he's called up doak( scotlands most talented u21) conway doig johnstone barron in last few games who are all performing at a higher level  than miller so I think you are being harsh with the u21 shout

Does anyone think at this minute in time miller is performing better than any of the midfielders picked. I for one certainly don't.

It's not necessarily the fact that Clarke hasn't picked Miller that aggrieves me and others, it's that his reasoning for not doing so is utter bollox and can be picked apart through his other decisions and the things he says in the press. He's a twat. 

[Stuwell2]

At the moment Motherwell are doing their bit but if the talent isn’t there that will stop - although SOD, McGinn, Halliday and Watt all had high praise for a few of the youngsters coming through the other night. So here’s hoping we will be seeing more home grown talent for the next couple of seasons at least which in turn could lead to others joining the youth setup as they see a pathway to first team football at a younger age than what the OF offer. 

[David]

2 minutes ago, wellfan said:

It's not necessarily the fact that Clarke hasn't picked Miller that aggrieves me and others, it's that his reasoning for not doing so is utter bollox and can be picked apart through his other decisions and the things he says in the press. He's a twat. 

100% this. 

48 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

It's easy to slag clarke and I can as well for some things but I think he's handling miller well at this stage

If Miller were to move down south in January he'd be right into that senior squad. Guaranteed. There's nothing Clarke loves more than that. 

[wellfan]

13 minutes ago, Stuwell2 said:

At the moment Motherwell are doing their bit but if the talent isn’t there that will stop - although SOD, McGinn, Halliday and Watt all had high praise for a few of the youngsters coming through the other night. So here’s hoping we will be seeing more home grown talent for the next couple of seasons at least which in turn could lead to others joining the youth setup as they see a pathway to first team football at a younger age than what the OF offer. 

That is great news for us at a Club level. However, until Gemmill and Clarke are replaced, the mismanagement of our U21 national squad will continue and the lack of opportunities for non-Rangers/Celtic/EPL/EFL U21s in the full national squad will likely continue.

[weeyin]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

That is great news for us at a Club level. However, until Gemmill and Clarke are replaced, the mismanagement of our U21 national squad will continue and the lack of opportunities for non-Rangers/Celtic/EPL/EFL U21s in the full national squad will likely continue.

100% - our entire national development structure is unfit for purpose.

[joewarkfanclub]

Not sure what folks are expecting from Stevie Clarke?

Who does Lennon Miller displace in the Scotland squad.

Gilmour, McLean, Christie, McTominay, McGinn, Armstrong?

You could make a case for Connor Barron, but even he is further ahead in his development than Miller.

Lennon isnt ready for the senior team yet. He clearly has the ability and if he had bossed it against Celtic and Rangers recently not to mention his last U21 apearance then the calls for his inclusion would have been harder to ignore.

Folks can pick fault with Clarke for many things, this isnt one of them.

 

[gaz7]

7 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Not sure what folks are expecting from Stevie Clarke?

Who does Lennon Miller displace in the Scotland squad.

Gilmour, McLean, Christie, McTominay, McGinn, Armstrong?

You could make a case for Connor Barron, but even he is further ahead in his development than Miller.

Lennon isnt ready for the senior team yet. He clearly has the ability and if he had bossed it against Celtic and Rangers recently not to mention his last U21 apearance then the calls.for his inclusion would have been harder to ignore.

Folks can pick fault with Clarke for many things, this isnt one of them.

 

Exactly where I am Joe. I actually think because there are no other young players around just now in spfl miller gets it quite easy with praise.

He has all tools in his locker and does make game look easy but I read a stat on a debate on him yesterday that said his pass completion was 75% which was one of lowest in league and less than 2 tackles a game again one of lowest in league. So there is certainly things for him to improve.

  If we think back to when turnbull came in team we also had at that time campbell and hastie who were really exciting as well as arriyibi who again was better than anything we have now I feel.

His next move is massive and certainly if he went to celtic I don't think he would play for a bit. 

Turnbull got unlucky with injury at celtic as before that he was playing every week so it shows in football anything can happen and there are no guarantees. 

[well_said]

10 hours ago, weeyin said:

100% - our entire national development structure is unfit for purpose.

The football authorities in this country are only interested in two clubs and that will never change. Someone mentioned in an earlier post about the work Rainier Bonhof was doing and wanted to do with the football set up in Scotland would have been innovative and quite probably successful, but i can imagine the blazers at the SFA thinking what does he know , he is only a  German. 

[wellfan]

51 minutes ago, well_said said:

The football authorities in this country are only interested in two clubs and that will never change. Someone mentioned in an earlier post about the work Rainier Bonhof was doing and wanted to do with the football set up in Scotland would have been innovative and quite probably successful, but i can imagine the blazers at the SFA thinking what does he know , he is only a  German. 

Aye, but what does World Cup winner Bonhof know that the SFA blazers don’t?! Probably a lot in this context. 

The SFA is run by a bunch of parochial old boys who would break into a delirious sweat at the thought of doing something that could affect their cushy empire. 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/former-scotland-u21-coach-rainer-1083839.amp

 

[David]

10 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Not sure what folks are expecting from Stevie Clarke?

Personally, I'm expecting him not to rabbit on about how well other nations do in promoting youth players who then get picked for the national side, only to then swat away a question about Lennon Miller in his usual style, claiming that "he’s another young one that everybody wants to hype and push."

What's it to be, Steve? Do you want young players coming through and playing regularly for their clubs? Or do you only want that as long as people don't get excited about it and "hype" them up? 

[joewarkfanclub]

13 minutes ago, David said:

Personally, I'm expecting him not to rabbit on about how well other nations do in promoting youth players who then get picked for the national side, only to then swat away a question about Lennon Miller in his usual style, claiming that "he’s another young one that everybody wants to hype and push."

What's it to be, Steve? Do you want young players coming through and playing regularly for their clubs? Or do you only want that as long as people don't get excited about it and "hype" them up? 

He is answering loaded questions from journalists and trying not to give them their headline.

Clearly Croatia are better at bringing through young players than we are.

But thats a different question than trying to protect young players when they are not quite ready for the senior squad.

The two are related. But they are not the same.

He did the same with Ben Doak when folk were clamouring for him to be involved.

Clarke will select Miller when he is ready.

Right now, I dont think he is.

[David]

8 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

He did the same with Ben Doak when folk were clamouring for him to be involved.

He picked Ben Doak for Scotland after he had played 37 minutes of senior league football for Liverpool, and around 12 minutes of senior football for Celtic. 

Lennon Miller has played 55 games for Motherwell, including a semi-final and he's now captained the side as well. 

It's not about protecting players or selecting them when they're ready. Clarke will most likely have Lennon Miller in his full international squad the very minute the ink dries on a contract with a German, Italian or English side. 

That's why we see him constantly go looking for individuals who ply their trade in the lower reaches of the English game who have a hint of Scottish ancestry. 

[joewarkfanclub]

40 minutes ago, David said:

He picked Ben Doak for Scotland after he had played 37 minutes of senior league football for Liverpool, and around 12 minutes of senior football for Celtic. 

Lennon Miller has played 55 games for Motherwell, including a semi-final and he's now captained the side as well. 

It's not about protecting players or selecting them when they're ready. Clarke will most likely have Lennon Miller in his full international squad the very minute the ink dries on a contract with a German, Italian or English side. 

That's why we see him constantly go looking for individuals who ply their trade in the lower reaches of the English game who have a hint of Scottish ancestry. 

Without wanting to disappoint Texan here and get into a tit for tat debate, do you think Lennon Miller is ready for the Senior Squad right now?

[Ya Bezzer!]

Of all the players who have started a league match in the Scottish Premiership this season 70% are non Scots.

 

[grizzlyg]

I don't think young Lennon is ready but would do no harm having him in the squad and training with them.

Clarke is far too loyal and will no doubt prove this tonight starting ralston...Hanley and please don't start me on Dykes!!, a man who can't even get a start for a league 1 side

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 minute ago, grizzlyg said:

I don't think young Lennon is ready but would do no harm having him in the squad and training with them.

Clarke is far too loyal and will no doubt prove this tonight starting ralston...Hanley and please don't start me on Dykes!!, a man who can't even get a start for a league 1 side

Don't think anyone is saying Miller is a first pick but you could have him in the squad and maybe give him some minutes of the bench.

If you look at the three emerging young Scottish players this season, Barron, McCowan and Miller, none of them will get a look in under Clarke.

 

[David]

11 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Without wanting to disappoint Texan here and get into a tit for tat debate, do you think Lennon Miller is ready for the Senior Squad right now?

Ready to start for the senior team? Probably not. Ready to be part of the squad and see some minutes? Absolutely. 

We can say that he’s more prepared for this than Doak was when he received his first call-up. The reason for this is simple: Doak had played so little football at that point, it was almost impossible to know what he was truly capable of. He was picked because he'd signed for Liverpool. He was chosen pretty much based entirely on potential.

Lennon, on the other hand, has already featured in over 50 senior matches. And the way he's being spoken about reflects that. It's not just because of his potential, but because he has shown it during the senior games he's played.

I just want Clarke to be honest. Stop talking nonsense about how we don't have a conveyor belt of young players then actively tell us that you're not picking one of the nation's hottest young talents because he's just "another young one that everybody wants to hype and push."

stop telling us that you aren't picking Lawrence Shankland when he's scored 16 goals in 16 games because he needs more experience and more responsibility, then go and pick Tommy Conway who's managed to hit double figures twice in his entire career. 

Stop telling us that players need to be playing regularly for their clubs to really be considered for international selection then pick players who don't fit that criteria. 

He's constantly contradicting himself. And in my opinion, should have been punted after the Euros. 

[well_said]

37 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Of all the players who have started a league match in the Scottish Premiership this season 70% are non Scots.

 

And 60% are dross that only come to Scotland for easy money and also because they are not good enough to play elsewhere.

[0Neils40yarder]

36 minutes ago, David said:

Ready to start for the senior team? Probably not. Ready to be part of the squad and see some minutes? Absolutely. 

We can say that he’s more prepared for this than Doak was when he received his first call-up. The reason for this is simple: Doak had played so little football at that point, it was almost impossible to know what he was truly capable of. He was picked because he'd signed for Liverpool. He was chosen pretty much based entirely on potential.

Lennon, on the other hand, has already featured in over 50 senior matches. And the way he's being spoken about reflects that. It's not just because of his potential, but because he has shown it during the senior games he's played.

I just want Clarke to be honest. Stop talking nonsense about how we don't have a conveyor belt of young players then actively tell us that you're not picking one of the nation's hottest young talents because he's just "another young one that everybody wants to hype and push."

stop telling us that you aren't picking Lawrence Shankland when he's scored 16 goals in 16 games because he needs more experience and more responsibility, then go and pick Tommy Conway who's managed to hit double figures twice in his entire career. 

Stop telling us that players need to be playing regularly for their clubs to really be considered for international selection then pick players who don't fit that criteria. 

He's constantly contradicting himself. And in my opinion, should have been punted after the Euros. 

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not a massive fan of Clark, and I could have cracked his jaw if I had bumped into him in Germany in the Summer, but I'm a bit puzzled by your take on this, and others to be fair.

 

Doak plays in a position that we are literally completely bereft of anyone playing at any sort of level, the fact that he signed for Liverpool suggests that he's a very exciting talent and the fact that he's ripping it up week in and out at Middlesbrough currently would back that up. 

 

At the time of Doaks selection, the convo would have been literally 'we need a bit of pace and width in the team, who have we got?' Doak and naebody else would have been the response...get him in and have a look.

 

Miller plays in a position where we currently, literally do not need him, ahead of him are players that play in Serie A and the English Premier and Championship, players that aren't completely over the hill and players that the manager trusts, rightly or wrongly.

 

Clarke will have watched Miller umpteen times and it's his job to decide if he adds something to his squad, and he clearly feels that at this moment he is right down the pecking order.

 

Clarke uses the word 'hype'...could he mean 'over-hype' and he's not buying into the praise that's been heaped on young Lennon so far?