Motherwell v Hibernian 30/11/2024

[santheman]

7 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Yes, we have no leaders on the pitch and I don't think Lennon Miller being made temporary captain is helping him or us. 100!% on the nail about bullying. A bigger, physically stronger, team with a more aggressive attitude bullied us. I recall poor wee, but game, Davor being absolutely flattenend several times and Hibs also had that wrecking ball Bushiri going wild at the back. Apart from central defence, we really are soft as s**t.

Yep. Young Lennon IMO has regressed since being made captain.

I feel for him as he constantly looks up for a forward pass only to find that his only option is a sideways or backwards one.

He must be frustrated as hell.

Wee Davor is game and doesnt try to hide, I'll give him that but he really doesn't have the necessary physical attributes when he's up against bigger/stronger opponents.

[joewarkfanclub]

Took a little time out last night to not think about football and digest what I saw yesterday.

For the first time this season I am genuinely worried.

We have had some poor performances this season, but they have generally all had some form of mitigation and we have generally bounced back with a win.

Wasnt too enamoured with the starting 11 as Davor and Halliday together generally never goes well, albeit the change from a box to a diamond should have helped. But with Maswanhise being asked to play through the middle we really needed our wingbacks to push high and support the front 2 and this never happened causing us to get deeper and deeper until our defence and midfield were camped in our penalty area. We could have gone ahead if Balmer had converted but it was absolutely no surprise whatsoever when we conceded, and even more annoying that Hibs didnt have to do anything to work for either goal.

The half time subs for me were all wrong. Stama wasnt having any impact, but he had been left so isolated he deserved at least a chance to show what he could do with Watt alongside him and Maswanhise out wide. He must be really evaluating his decision to join us now.

We did get marginally better in the second half, but it was such a low bar it would have been impossible not to.

Going 3-4-3 did improve our attacking impetus a little but it left us wide open at the back so was no surprise when we lost the 3rd and putting the game beyond us.

My main bug bear from yesterday is that SK is back to picking the wrong starting formations and making baffling substitutions.

We never seem to play to our strengths.

Kaleta is an absolute flying machine and has proved he can deliver a good cross. But we dont have any patterns of play to get him on the ball in positions he can take on the defender.

Miller has absolutely no support in midfield. It was telling that he started to look more effective when Paton came on as he at least seemed to be able to carry the ball and pass it to a team mate!

Our defenders are all too similar. Casey, Gordon and Balmer all like a header and a wrestling match but none of them are great with the ball at their feet. Seddon really needs brought back in there until SOD or McGinn get back.

With Davor and Halliday in front of that 3, its no surprise we cant keep the ball or build any passages of play.

SK has some big questions ahead of Wednesday. He needs to find the right answers before this bump in the road turns into another malaise.

I wont be able to defend another winless streak if he hasnt learned anything from last years.

[Spit_It_Out]

20 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Took a little time out last night to not think about football and digest what I saw yesterday.

For the first time this season I am genuinely worried.

We have had some poor performances this season, but they have generally all had some form of mitigation and we have generally bounced back with a win.

Wasnt too enamoured with the starting 11 as Davor and Halliday together generally never goes well, albeit the change from a box to a diamond should have helped. But with Maswanhise being asked to play through the middle we really needed our wingbacks to push high and support the front 2 and this never happened causing us to get deeper and deeper until our defence and midfield were camped in our penalty area. We could have gone ahead if Balmer had converted but it was absolutely no surprise whatsoever when we conceded, and even more annoying that Hibs didnt have to do anything to work for either goal.

The half time subs for me were all wrong. Stama wasnt having any impact, but he had been left so isolated he deserved at least a chance to show what he could do with Watt alongside him and Maswanhise out wide. He must be really evaluating his decision to join us now.

We did get marginally better in the second half, but it was such a low bar it would have been impossible not to.

Going 3-4-3 did improve our attacking impetus a little but it left us wide open at the back so was no surprise when we lost the 3rd and putting the game beyond us.

My main bug bear from yesterday is that SK is back to picking the wrong starting formations and making baffling substitutions.

We never seem to play to our strengths.

Kaleta is an absolute flying machine and has proved he can deliver a good cross. But we dont have any patterns of play to get him on the ball in positions he can take on the defender.

Miller has absolutely no support in midfield. It was telling that he started to look more effective when Paton came on as he at least seemed to be able to carry the ball and pass it to a team mate!

Our defenders are all too similar. Casey, Gordon and Balmer all like a header and a wrestling match but none of them are great with the ball at their feet. Seddon really needs brought back in there until SOD or McGinn get back.

With Davor and Halliday in front of that 3, its no surprise we cant keep the ball or build any passages of play.

SK has some big questions ahead of Wednesday. He needs to find the right answers before this bump in the road turns into another malaise.

I wont be able to defend another winless streak if he hasnt learned anything from last years.

Exactly I don't want another 3-4 month winless streak these are the games we should be picking up the points in and we are looking so bad void of anything worthwhile talking about.

I just wish he would try something different we have the players to do so but so set in his ways.

Long week ahead.

[David]

4 hours ago, wellsince75 said:

Going to point out the obvious -we don't play attacking football.  

For the last 10 games we've averaged 3.8 shots on target "we are not entertained". 

We can live with not being entertained when we're winning but this is very similar style (or lack of style) to GA era. 

All teams will have poor runs, we accept and understand this but for crying out loud during these cold , winter months we need something that we can get behind and cheer on.  This negative keep it tight ever game strategy is awful. 

The thing is, we are winning. That's why we're sitting in fifth place. We've won six games this season, a record that can only be bettered by three clubs in the league: Aberdeen, Celtic, and Rangers. We've won twice (or more than twice) as many games as four other teams in the league.

The attractiveness of the football can be debated until the cows come home, but the truth is, we're sitting fifth and have reached a cup semi-final. 

We're obviously on a bit of a skid at the moment, and if that continues I'm sure questions will be asked, but I don't think that will become the case, mainly because of the type of football we play. 

The way Kettlewell sets us out is perfect for nabbing points in this league. We have a mid-table team written all over us. The question is, is that success? That's more down to the individual I guess. 

[Kmcalpin]

58 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

The half time subs for me were all wrong. Stama wasnt having any impact, but he had been left so isolated he deserved at least a chance to show what he could do with Watt alongside him and Maswanhise out wide. He must be really evaluating his decision to join us now.ons.

Absolutely. Didn't really understand yesterday's subs. I would have swapped Seddon for Wilson at HT  and brought on Paton then as well. Watt comes on, fair enough, but then plays wide right. Ebeye was also the wrong choice. He's fine in the box but you have to get the ball in box for him and we didn't do that. 

[David]

Interestingly, I've noticed a few mentions of the Graham Alexander era.

That was another time when we were enjoying relative success. He came in and guided the club to an eighth-place finish, followed by a fifth-place finish in his first full season.

It was another season where I heard people claim we were only in the position we were because the teams around us were poor. But much like this Kettlewell side, we ended that season with only four teams having won more games than us all year, and one of those was Livingston, who finished in the bottom six, so that slightly distorts things when considering the quality of competition we faced after the split.

After binning him we entered one of the most turbulent periods of recent times, and Kettlewell, like him or not, has steadied that ship.

[joewarkfanclub]

4 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Absolutely. Didn't really understand yesterday's subs. I would have swapped Seddon for Wilson at HT  and brought on Paton then as well. Watt comes on, fair enough, but then plays wide right. Ebeye was also the wrong choice. He's fine in the box but you have to get the ball in box for him and we didn't do that. 

I would have brought Seddon on for Balmer.

He played LCB very well against St Johnstone and played some very good passes out of defence. He also gave Wilson more security at the back and allowed him to go forward more.

Watt through the middle would have been fine, but agree to then bring Moses on when we werent getting any delivery into the box seemed pointless.

Paton should have been on at half time. Personally I would have hooked Davor as Halliday has more football in him, but neither could have complained about being hooked.

I can only presume SK is still trying to manage Patons minutes to prevent him from breaking down again.

Thatbeing the case he would seem an unlikely starter on Wednesday. Which would make our options limited.

[sinjy]

Davor and Halliday in midfield will not work. When was the last time a midfielder ran beyond the front players? There is no movement. Ideally a midfield should have a tackler, a runner and a passer. Paton might fill the runner/ball carrier but we do not have a competent tackler/defensive  midfielder. If we are going to play 5 at the back then our full backs must provide the width. Kaleta has shown he can do this but Wilson does not have that change of pace necessary to beat the other full back.

We are locked into this system. Only Mashwalli and the guy from Hibs could be considered wingers so we don't seem to have the players for 442 or 433. My first aim every season is to see us get to 40 points. On yesterday's showing that is a long way off.

[joewarkfanclub]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Interestingly, I've noticed a few mentions of the Graham Alexander era.

That was another time when we were enjoying relative success. He came in and guided the club to an eighth-place finish, followed by a fifth-place finish in his first full season.

It was another season where I heard people claim we were only in the position we were because the teams around us were poor. But much like this Kettlewell side, we ended that season with only four teams having won more games than us all year, and one of those was Livingston, who finished in the bottom six, so that slightly distorts things when considering the quality of competition we faced after the split.

After binning him we entered one of the most turbulent periods of recent times, and Kettlewell, like him or not, has steadied that ship.

I'd tred carefully there David.

I know there is an argument to be made in favour of pragmatic football/managers when it gets you results, and I was broadly with you on the Alexander argument.

Not that I (or you) was supportive of Alexander per se, I just didnt see him getting sacked when he had got his top 6 and qualified for Europe.

The problem with it is that the environment becomes toxic before you even hit the winless streak as the football is so bad its not worth watching. So the minute results go against you the outcome is inevitible.

FWIW, SK has shown that he can be more than that. Some of our football under him has been pretty good to watch.

Peak Spittal, Slattery, Paton, Miller last season in our first game at Ibrox was a joy to watch. So Im hopeful that the current "Alexanderballesque" performances are a means to an end due to our injuries rather than a preference of style.

It would seem madness for a fan owned club who claim to have a community ethos to choose to serve up football that will drive fans away instead of attract them.

The proof will be in the pudding though. Lets hope it tastes sweet!

[David]

45 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I'd tred carefully there David.

I know there is an argument to be made in favour of pragmatic football/managers when it gets you results, and I was broadly with you on the Alexander argument.

Not that I (or you) was supportive of Alexander per se, I just didnt see him getting sacked when he had got his top 6 and qualified for Europe.

The problem with it is that the environment becomes toxic before you even hit the winless streak as the football is so bad its not worth watching. So the minute results go against you the outcome is inevitible.

FWIW, SK has shown that he can be more than that. Some of our football under him has been pretty good to watch.

Peak Spittal, Slattery, Paton, Miller last season in our first game at Ibrox was a joy to watch. So Im hopeful that the current "Alexanderballesque" performances are a means to an end due to our injuries rather than a preference of style.

It would seem madness for a fan owned club who claim to have a community ethos to choose to serve up football that will drive fans away instead of attract them.

The proof will be in the pudding though. Lets hope it tastes sweet!

While we all want entertaining football, the reality is that in the Scottish league, we often can’t afford the players who can deliver that while also winning consistently. It’s seen as being more pragmatic to focus on playing to win than to prioritise entertainment and let’s be honest, most teams in the league aren’t exactly thrilling to watch.

The vast coverage of top-tier football European football has skewed the way many fans perceive the game, creating unrealistic expectations about how the game should be played at a lower level. We watch games on TV and wonder why our teams can’t replicate their style, but the simple truth is that we don’t have the players to execute it. The manager, of course, would prefer to play entertaining football if possible, but winning will always come first. That’s the priority in our league.

And I don't see it driving fans away. Just the same I don't think us suddenly playing exciting football is going to attract new fans. Our crowds remain the same more or less. 

[Benson]

21 minutes ago, David said:

While we all want entertaining football, the reality is that in the Scottish league, we often can’t afford the players who can deliver that while also winning consistently. It’s seen as being more pragmatic to focus on playing to win than to prioritise entertainment and let’s be honest, most teams in the league aren’t exactly thrilling to watch.

The vast coverage of top-tier football European football has skewed the way many fans perceive the game, creating unrealistic expectations about how the game should be played at a lower level. We watch games on TV and wonder why our teams can’t replicate their style, but the simple truth is that we don’t have the players to execute it. The manager, of course, would prefer to play entertaining football if possible, but winning will always come first. That’s the priority in our league.

And I don't see it driving fans away. Just the same I don't think us suddenly playing exciting football is going to attract new fans. Our crowds remain the same more or less. 

"The reality is","most teams", it's like some sort of excuse to defend professionals who can't do the simplest of basic footballing skills and a manager that sets up at home not to lose and a fuck to entertaining, this coming from a ceo who wants to attract pay as you go fans to sit in a cold seat and look to the sky and wonder if you've done the right thing in paying 50 quid for you and your son to watch fu king drivel,so to your last point u don't see it driving fans away,it has me. 

[Benson]

1 minute ago, Benson said:

"The reality is","most teams", it's like some sort of excuse to defend professionals who can't do the simplest of basic footballing skills and a manager that sets up at home not to lose and a fuck to entertaining, this coming from a ceo who wants to attract pay as you go fans to sit in a cold seat and look to the sky and wonder if you've done the right thing in paying 50 quid for you and your son to watch fu king drivel,so to your last point u don't see it driving fans away,it has me. 

Even Lennon starting to look like a pissed off bog standard player playing in that environment,before me know it he'll be gone for a couple of hundred grand.

[texanwellfan]

7 hours ago, wellsince75 said:

Going to point out the obvious -we don't play attacking football.  

For the last 10 games we've averaged 3.8 shots on target "we are not entertained". 

We can live with not being entertained when we're winning but this is very similar style (or lack of style) to GA era. 

All teams will have poor runs, we accept and understand this but for crying out loud during these cold , winter months we need something that we can get behind and cheer on.  This negative keep it tight ever game strategy is awful. 

Well the issue now is that we are not keeping it tight. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

20 hours ago, steelman1991 said:

I don’t see this “think there is a player in there with Stama” he’s shown nothing to suggest that there is. Now he may not be a target man, but he should at least have the basic skills and be able to hold a ball in and pass over 5-10 yards. So far he’s been able to do neither. Managing that would at least be a start towards “there being a player in there” 🤷‍♂️🤔

I wouldn't write him off just yet but I'll say this.

There have been quite a few players come to Scotland from Australia in recent years.

Very few of them have been any good.

[dennyc]

21 minutes ago, David said:

While we all want entertaining football, the reality is that in the Scottish league, we often can’t afford the players who can deliver that while also winning consistently. It’s seen as being more pragmatic to focus on playing to win than to prioritise entertainment and let’s be honest, most teams in the league aren’t exactly thrilling to watch.

The vast coverage of top-tier football European football has skewed the way many fans perceive the game, creating unrealistic expectations about how the game should be played at a lower level. We watch games on TV and wonder why our teams can’t replicate their style, but the simple truth is that we don’t have the players to execute it. The manager, of course, would prefer to play entertaining football if possible, but winning will always come first. That’s the priority in our league.

And I don't see it driving fans away. Just the same I don't think us suddenly playing exciting football is going to attract new fans. Our crowds remain the same more or less. 

Whilst I agree with you regards financial limitations impacting the quality of the players we can recruit (that also applies to most teams in the League), it's not just about poor entertainment. When results are not good that poor entertainment becomes unbearable and other factors become a frustration.

Match day is again suggesting a Manager reluctant to try anything different, be it formation or personnel. A Manager that seems incapable of a fresh approach. A new approach that admittedly may not work, but at least would provide hope and indicate a willingness to adapt. And it is not just about the past two losses. There have been matches all season that have raised the same issues,

Underperforming players making the same errors week on week are starting no matter what, substitutions are like for like until such time as the game is lost and we are chasing a miracle. Then it's full panic mode and irrational.  That's what did for Alexander and unless SK is willing to adapt then I see exactly the same outcome for him. And that would be sad. I certainly don't see him again getting away with a terrible run like he took us through last season. And on the past two performances allied to the semi final a similar period is a possibility. The next three games could be pivotal. And if those three games go against us, I very much doubt we will be able to point to a top six placing as the end justifying the means.

Looking at the squad list in yesterday's programme, we have 27 players in our first team squad and that excludes a few additional players that have featured this season or have sat on the bench. So let's call it a squad of 30.  And yet yesterday we could not get a functioning eleven on the park.  They are his players now, many were recruited by him, several had a history of serious injury prior to signing. It was no secret that Spittal and Bair would be moving on.  If the quality of those available players and injuries mean we have no option but to stick with the current set up, then SK carries much of the responsibility for that limitation. No excuses. No mitigation. He has been allowed to recruit.

I defended SK last season because I felt he deserved leeway and was going through a learning process, with a squad that was partially inherited. He needed time to build his squad and implement his ideas. The past few games have made me question that reasoning and dig deeper.

As for driving fans away. It is not the lack of entertainment causing me to give Dundee a miss on Wednesday. If it was about lack of entertainment I have had plenty of opportunities to walk away since I first started attending games. I even survived the Malpas years.  I am avoiding Dundee because I truly believe that I would be watching the same players as Saturday, squeezed into the exact same formation that restricts the quality players in the team, trying to kill the game for 70 minutes in the hope of sneaking a goal late on. And I'm fed up, scunnered with it all. Watching your team should not be a chore, whether they entertain or not.

[wellfan]

2 hours ago, dennyc said:

And I'm fed up, scunnered with it all. Watching your team should not be a chore, whether they entertain or not.

Precisely this. Scunnered. I’m a season ticket holder and I cannot recall voluntarily missing as many home games as I have done this season and last. Unglamorous football will never drive Motherwell fans away, but predictable, amateurish and negative shite will.

[joewarkfanclub]

6 hours ago, David said:

While we all want entertaining football, the reality is that in the Scottish league, we often can’t afford the players who can deliver that while also winning consistently. It’s seen as being more pragmatic to focus on playing to win than to prioritise entertainment and let’s be honest, most teams in the league aren’t exactly thrilling to watch.

The vast coverage of top-tier football European football has skewed the way many fans perceive the game, creating unrealistic expectations about how the game should be played at a lower level. We watch games on TV and wonder why our teams can’t replicate their style, but the simple truth is that we don’t have the players to execute it. The manager, of course, would prefer to play entertaining football if possible, but winning will always come first. That’s the priority in our league.

And I don't see it driving fans away. Just the same I don't think us suddenly playing exciting football is going to attract new fans. Our crowds remain the same more or less. 

You may have some merit in that.

I go to watch my team because Im fed up watching the same sanitised ticky tacka Pepball being played by most top teams. 

The Euros this year were largely gash with maybe Georgia and Turkey being the only teams to buck the trend.

However, my custom being guaranteed doesnt mean it should be taken for granted. The Well Society made a big deal this summer of wanting to grow our support as an alternative to outside investment.

For that to happen the product has to be worth watching otherwise occasional supporters wont be enthused enough to return.

That doesnt mean we need to be playing silky free flowing football. You are right in that we cant afford those kinds of players.

But what we can do is get a solid team unit together and sprinkle it with a little fairy dust to create a halfway house where we are effective enough to win games, but attractive enough to not bore the shite out of everyone.

SK did that to good effect last season. There have been glimpses of it this season (mostly in the second half of games when he has made changes) but Saturday was a huge step back.