Dundee v Motherwell 04/12/2024

[santheman]

That's the team and formation I'd put out but don't think there's any way he'll drop Halliday unless he's had some kind of epiphany 

[wellfan]

As promising as Wilson and Kaleta are, they’re not in the mould of Gent or Spencer, yet. Therefore, our back 5 is basically just that; 5 defenders with limited dynamism or consistent attacking threat. Add into the mix a static midfield of Miller as a pivot with 2-3 non-attack minded players around him, and 1 isolated man up top, then we’re absolutely useless.

Switching to a flat back 4 would immediately allow a better balance to be brought into the middle of the park, which will in turn lead to a better service being provided for our attacker(s).

4-4-2 or 4-1-3-2 or 4-2-3-1 or something similar has to be the way forward now. 

[weeyin]

I'm a fan of back fours, but not sure how the rest of the formation would pan out given the currently available personnel.

I'm also not convinced our defenders could adapt to the new formation in 3 days, given how they struggle to adapt with marking, tackling and passing the ball to their own team mates. We do need to change something at the back, though, so maybe the 4 is they way to go.

One of the side issues for me is having Miller as captain. I appreciate the idea behind it, but when you've had a drop in performance for a few games, having an angry old man for captain that yells in your face can sometimes be more beneficial than a nice boy with epic ball skills.

[Spit_It_Out]

Davor couldn't tackle an open bag of chips and Halliday is slower than a week in jail.

I tell you what's worrying for me is without McGinn and O Donnell we are beyond useless and even more worrying these are the players most folk on here wanted to punt!

I don't know what to expect Vs Dundee however I hope he has a formation change at very least and we see a vast improvement in service to Stam it's time to get this boy firing.

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

As promising as Wilson and Kaleta are, they’re not in the mould of Gent or Spencer, yet. Therefore, our back 5 is basically just that; 5 defenders with limited dynamism or consistent attacking threat. Add into the mix a static midfield of Miller as a pivot with 2-3 non-attack minded players around him, and 1 isolated man up top, then we’re absolutely useless.

Switching to a flat back 4 would immediately allow a better balance to be brought into the middle of the park, which will in turn lead to a better service being provided for our attacker(s).

4-4-2 or 4-1-3-2 or 4-2-3-1 or something similar has to be the way forward now. 

I think Kaleta can be that player, but we dont play in a way that allows him to be. He has the pace and delivery but we regularly ignore him standing in acres of space on the right to fire balls at Stama and Maswanhise who have little or no chance to get it under control before they are challenged.

Once our better midfielders are fit Id like to see us go to a four, not sure that now is the time though given what we have at our disposal.

We can get width though if we play to Kaleta's strengths and push Maswanhise out wide left.

Then maybe Stama et all would get some delivery to feed off.

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Once our better midfielders are fit Id like to see us go to a four, not sure that now is the time though given what we have at our disposal.

If now isn't the time, when we're shipping goals for fun and absolutely dugmeat across the pitch anyway, then when is the right time? After another appalling winless run? Or once the longterm injured return and miraculously and instantly recover their previous form? I'm not so sure about that.

Kettlewell needs to arrest this slump now, as he certainly won't get away with another poor run again, but he seems intent on continuing to repeat the same crap tactics and silly formation(s), as well as make the same mistakes, that will see the team continue to decline in both their performances and confidence levels. It's pretty obvious to all what's on the horizon should he continue as is, so he'll only have himself to blame if/when he's relieved of his duties. 

[joewarkfanclub]

3 hours ago, wellfan said:

If now isn't the time, when we're shipping goals for fun and absolutely dugmeat across the pitch anyway, then when is the right time? After another appalling winless run? Or once the longterm injured return and miraculously and instantly recover their previous form? I'm not so sure about that.

Kettlewell needs to arrest this slump now, as he certainly won't get away with another poor run again, but he seems intent on continuing to repeat the same crap tactics and silly formation(s), as well as make the same mistakes, that will see the team continue to decline in both their performances and confidence levels. It's pretty obvious to all what's on the horizon should he continue as is, so he'll only have himself to blame if/when he's relieved of his duties. 

My point wasnt that we shouldnt change the system now. It was more, do we actually have enough fit midfielders of sufficient quality to justify going to 4 at the back, which ultimately will require an extra body in midfield or up top?

[thewelllfan]

352

Ox

Balmer Gordon Seddon

Kaleta Paton Miller Halliday Wilson

Ebiye Maswanhise 

That's what I'd be going with Paton can help link the game a bit more and can at least carry the ball through midfield. I'd like to see Ebiye get a start he causes Chaos in the box and by adding Paton into midfield you've got him and Halliday that can go and attack the space he'll vacate from behind.

[wellfan]

56 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

My point wasnt that we shouldnt change the system now. It was more, do we actually have enough fit midfielders of sufficient quality to justify going to 4 at the back, which ultimately will require an extra body in midfield or up top?

Based on who we've got available, we'd be as well going 4-2-4. It can't be any worse than starting 6 defenders and still losing. 

[dennyc]

24 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

My point wasnt that we shouldnt change the system now. It was more, do we actually have enough fit midfielders of sufficient quality to justify going to 4 at the back, which ultimately will require an extra body in midfield or up top?

My view is that now is the time to change our set up. Teams have sussed us out. We are too predictable and opponents know how to cope with our only genuine attacking open play option under the wing back system. Opponents now push wide players further up the pitch, forcing Kaleta/ Wilson or who ever takes up our wing back role deep into their own half with little opportunity to push forward. Given our lack of numbers/ mobility/creativity in midfield the result is that our three centre backs end up hoofing the ball as far downfield as they can in the hope that one of our two strikers gets the break of the ball. In reality, as seen on Saturday, they both end up chasing lost causes 90% of the time. A thankless task. Kaleta and Wilson nullified. Game over with a poor Hibs side strolling to a win. Our only other tactic seemed to be launching throw ins deep into the Hib's box where their under fire centre backs had a field day.

I agree with 'wellfan' that it's worth testing whether going four at the back might just improve all areas of the team. Surely it's worth a try.  Make us more solid and joined up. If that means one of the giants sits on the bench then so be it. Even allowing for injuries, if we cannot come up with a midfield four or an attacking three from a squad of 30 then questions should be asked. And let's not come up with a solution that involves square pegs in round holes. Like Wilson as a creative midfielder. That experiment failed.

At the very least, let's make it harder for our opponents to stick to their initial gameplan.

[joewarkfanclub]

23 minutes ago, dennyc said:

My view is that now is the time to change our set up. Teams have sussed us out. We are too predictable and opponents know how to cope with our only genuine attacking open play option under the wing back system. Opponents now push wide players further up the pitch, forcing Kaleta/ Wilson or who ever takes up our wing back role deep into their own half with little opportunity to push forward. Given our lack of numbers/ mobility/creativity in midfield the result is that our three centre backs end up hoofing the ball as far downfield as they can in the hope that one of our two strikers gets the break of the ball. In reality, as seen on Saturday, they both end up chasing lost causes 90% of the time. A thankless task. Kaleta and Wilson nullified. Game over with a poor Hibs side strolling to a win. Our only other tactic seemed to be launching throw ins deep into the Hib's box where their under fire centre backs had a field day.

I agree with 'wellfan' that it's worth testing whether going four at the back might just improve all areas of the team. Surely it's worth a try.  Make us more solid and joined up. If that means one of the giants sits on the bench then so be it. Even allowing for injuries, if we cannot come up with a midfield four or an attacking three from a squad of 30 then questions should be asked. And let's not come up with a solution that involves square pegs in round holes. Like Wilson as a creative midfielder. That experiment failed.

At the very least, let's make it harder for our opponents to stick to their initial gameplan.

I understand what both of you are saying. But if you remove Wilson from the equation you need to play Halliday and/or Davor. There in lies my dilemma.

Id not be too upset with Paton, Miller, Halliday and Maswanhise with Watt & Stama up top. But its still a lopsided arrangement with precious little protection for the central defence in transition.

It also gives you a selection problem at centre half. Which combo do you trust enough with the ball at their feet whilst also being able to competently defend?

I think its a big ask to get it right with 2 days training.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

The game is being shown on Dundee's PPV channel 

https://dundeefc.co.uk/news/ppv-mwell-dec24/

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, thewelllfan said:

352

Ox

Balmer Gordon Seddon

Kaleta Paton Miller Halliday Wilson

Ebiye Maswanhise 

That's what I'd be going with Paton can help link the game a bit more and can at least carry the ball through midfield. I'd like to see Ebiye get a start he causes Chaos in the box and by adding Paton into midfield you've got him and Halliday that can go and attack the space he'll vacate from behind.

Agree about Paton. I get why you'd bring Seddon into central defence, but its swings and roundabouts as Wilson is an old fashioned full back as opposed to a modern day wing back. Ebeye and Maswhanhise wouldn't work up front as the former is a penalty box poacher and the latter is a winger. 

[thewelllfan]

1 minute ago, Kmcalpin said:

Agree about Paton. I get why you'd bring Seddon into central defence, but its swings and roundabouts as Wilson is an old fashioned full back as opposed to a modern day wing back. Ebeye and Maswhanhise wouldn't work up front as the former is a penalty box poacher and the latter is a winger. 

Ebiye is better to play long to and get flicks off tho which seems to be all we do in games the winger poacher combo should work better as Maswanhise can create for him. I'm not opposed to Robinson playing up there either Stams just not involved for me waste of a jersey if we aren't using him to his strengths

[Kmcalpin]

Whatever striker we deploy, we should either play it over the defence or keep it on the deck. O for Davie Cooper now. He was great at slinging in low hard balls against big defenders. 

[SteelmaninOZ]

The gaffer said 

 

[MelvinBragg]

The number of people suggesting we start Watt is surprising me. For me, he's offered nothing to show he merits it. Although I take the point of anyone who says that there are a few players in the team who haven't shown that they merit it...

[wellfan]

3 minutes ago, MelvinBragg said:

The number of people suggesting we start Watt is surprising me. For me, he's offered nothing to show he merits it. Although I take the point of anyone who says that there are a few players in the team who haven't shown that they merit it...

Merit means nothing to Kettlewell. For example, Tavares getting on at Hampden over Ebiye will never cease to amaze. 

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, MelvinBragg said:

The number of people suggesting we start Watt is surprising me. For me, he's offered nothing to show he merits it. Although I take the point of anyone who says that there are a few players in the team who haven't shown that they merit it...

Merit is fine if the team is getting results.

When it was, no-one was suggesting Watt should be near the team.

The problem we have right now is we have a mis-functioning midfield and a no.1 striker who cant get a sniff of the ball.

My view, and I presume most others, is that Watt is the most equipped player we have to offer him support and try and connect the different areas of the team.

Its worth a shot and the extra minutes will confirm or refute whether Watt has anything left to offer at this level.

[dennyc]

2 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Merit is fine if the team is getting results.

When it was, no-one was suggesting Watt should be near the team.

The problem we have right now is we have a mis-functioning midfield and a no.1 striker who cant get a sniff of the ball.

My view, and I presume most others, is that Watt is the most equipped player we have to offer him support and try and connect the different areas of the team.

Its worth a shot and the extra minutes will confirm or refute whether Watt has anything left to offer at this level.

Watt might not be the player we once had but he has guile and is a nuisance which might just unsettle Dundee. Anything that better suits Stama and Maswanhise than a back three launching the ball over their heads is worth a try.  So yes,  give Watt a run from the start, play the ball to his feet and let’s see if that helps those around him. Give  Dundee something different to cope with. 

That said, I fear SK will stick to his guns and set up exactly as usual and as Dundee will anticipate.  A 3-5-2 formation which suited them just fine in their last game at Fir Park. 
 

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

That said, I fear SK will stick to his guns and set up exactly as usual and as Dundee will anticipate.  A 3-5-2 formation which suited them just fine in their last game at Fir Park. 
 

If he does that and we lose the game he is inviting significant pressure onto himself unecessarily

I think most fans understand he is a little hamstrung with injuries just now and would accept a loss if they see attempts to fix things. But continuing to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results will severely test the patience of most.

He was reportedly quite angry at the weekend though and the performance was bad enough that no one could complain if they were dropped tomorrow night.

I dont expect wholesale changes. But I would expect 2 or 3 with a tweak or two to the system.

[texanwellfan]

21 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

If he does that and we lose the game he is inviting significant pressure onto himself unecessarily

I think most fans understand he is a little hamstrung with injuries just now and would accept a loss if they see attempts to fix things. But continuing to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results will severely test the patience of most.

He was reportedly quite angry at the weekend though and the performance was bad enough that no one could complain if they were dropped tomorrow night.

I dont expect wholesale changes. But I would expect 2 or 3 with a tweak or two to the system.

Whatever system he come up with he also needs to have them start playing as a team. It’s 11 individuals swanning around or at best 3 separate units with no cohesion between them. We need to move up and down the park as a team 

[mfc]

14 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

Whatever system he come up with he also needs to have them start playing as a team. It’s 11 individuals swanning around or at best 3 separate units with no cohesion between them. We need to move up and down the park as a team 

Spot on,making any changes to the starting lineup and formation will mean nothing if we go out with the same negative mindset that we've seen recently,I hope I'm wrong but I think we will see a similar setup to the ross county game.

[wellfan]

Perhaps the negative rot has set in and they no longer know how to play as an attacking team on the front foot. It feels like another winless run is inevitable. 

[bobbybingo]

Robinson out for the season, ruptured achilles.