Motherwell v Kilmarnock 20/12/2024

[Kmcalpin]

Just to add to the refereeing discussion. Killie should have picked up 3 yellow cards in the first 15 minutes. They set out their stall early on and tested a weak referee. The first was a deliberate very late tackle on Lennon Miller. No card. Harry Paton committed an identical offence late on and was rightly booked for it. Another was a deliberate elbow to Lennon Miller's head; again no action taken.  Total inconsistency. As an aside, teams are now starting to target Lennon Miller. He'll need to learn to deal with this kind of treatment as he'll face much worse if he moves south to a big team.  

I think the SFA will indeed take the referee's performance in to account when making allocations for future games. Just to make a point they will give us him again very soon. Criticism of referees won't be tolerated. 

[Mccus28]

At least the ref's horror show had deflected away from our terrible performance.

Lennon has been poor for weeks now and I assume its because he has been given the captains armband.

If you really think about it, he is a kid and should not have that pressure thrust on him.

He is a top talent and the quicker he gets out of this league the better!!!!!

[joewarkfanclub]

Not too bothered about the quality of the performance as games against McInnes teams usually end up in a shitfest. He is a very tactically astute manager and once again he set his team up to counter our line up and it worked.

The fact that we managed to sneak a goal and looked reasonably solid defending it until half time was pleasing. But we were always going to run out of legs and the subs needed to be the correct ones. Ultimately SK got it wrong again by waiting too long and trying to hold what we had.

The first 2 subs should have been Sparrow and Maswanhise for Halliday and Paton.

Had we done that and pushed Killie back, their goal maybe doesnt happen. 

The fact that we then get the red card and look better with 10 men is proof in point. The last 10/15 minutes were actually quite exciting.

As for the referee? Probably one of the worst in the league. His handling of the game was terrible. Letting Killie away with some pretty roughouse tactics and then blowing for silly inocuous fouls elsewhere. To give a red card to Casey when he lets his frustration boil over just encapsulated how poorly he was reading the game. To get the chance to overturn such a poor decision and then stick with it in an effort to show you are a strong referee shows a lot about his character. 

Overall a point was about right, and feels ok given the circumstances surrounding the red card, but it shoulda been 3. The manager needs to be braver with his selections and substitutions in key moments.

[wellsince75]

When paying fans rock up on cold winters night they need more than a pie and bovril to keep them warm.  4 shots all game/one on target is far from that. 

We had a such a good opportunity to build on the attacking display from last weekend.  A draw is a decent result , just a shame not to offer much in the way of entertainment. 

Majority of the SPL clubs need a kick in the backside to up their approach to entertaining the fans. 

 

[wellfan]

53 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

When paying fans rock up on cold winters night they need more than a pie and bovril to keep them warm.  4 shots all game/one on target is far from that. 

We had a such a good opportunity to build on the attacking display from last weekend.  A draw is a decent result , just a shame not to offer much in the way of entertainment. 

Majority of the SPL clubs need a kick in the backside to up their approach to entertaining the fans. 

 

When clubs are content to employ negative donkeys such as Kettlewell, at the same time as incompetent officials being allowed to ruin the game, the clubs and the SFA will have nobody to blame but themselves once ticket sales naturally drop off over time. The tipping point has been reached in terms of value for money. 

[santheman]

When VAR first came in I used to get annoyed if a decision went against us and  loved to see the disappointment on the faces of the oposition when it went against them. A bit of excitement and drama like the novelty of a new toy 

Months later I'm just annoyed permanently with it and would gladly toss it in the bin and I'm sure 99% of fans feel the same.

The novelty has well and truly worn off.

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Not too bothered about the quality of the performance as games against McInnes teams usually end up in a shitfest. He is a very tactically astute manager and once again he set his team up to counter our line up and it worked.

I agree with the first part, McInnes has made an entire managerial career out of shitfesting it.

I'm not sure I agree with the second part.  He's the sort of the definition of Scottish football's tactical backwardness.

[Benson]

Ex long term season ticket holder due to work commitments I pick and choose when to attend,I decided to go last night and it confirmed why at times I don't bother,as a pay as you go customer weather,if it's on tv and just getting older can sway decision but also entertainment value and after most games I've been to its been poor,have player standards dropped or is it that managers utilise tactics that kill players freedom to express themselves,games are like a game of chess nowadays and for me it's killing the games add to that referees needing to be centre of attention as in lasts nights game in stop start fashion and the crazy sending off.get rid of var,use goal line technology and accept refs make mistakes wether we have var or not. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 hour ago, wellsince75 said:

Majority of the SPL clubs need a kick in the backside to up their approach to entertaining the fans. 

At the end of the day it's easier to coach 'negative' tactics than it is attacking football because attacking football depends on talented footballers.

If you can't afford to pay talent and you don't produce any talent then inevitably Scottish football isn't going to be a great watch.

But fans are also to blame.  They don't want to watch technical football ("Get it up the park!") and have absolutely no patience in terms of team building or coaching.  

They want instant results and if you win 1 draw 1 lose 3 you can guarentee a sizeable section of the support will want you fired. 

There is no medium or long term thinking at pretty much every level of the game.

[Benson]

7 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

At the end of the day it's easier to coach 'negative' tactics than it is attacking football because attacking football depends on talented footballers.

If you can't afford to pay talent and you don't produce any talent then inevitably Scottish football isn't going to be a great watch.

But fans are also to blame.  They don't want to watch technical football ("Get it up the park!") and have absolutely no patience in terms of team building or coaching.  

They want instant results and if you win 1 draw 1 lose 3 you can guarentee a sizeable section of the support will want you fired. 

There is no medium or long term thinking at pretty much every level of the game.

I watch a lot of boys football and adult amateur games and I can assure you that very little negative tactics are on show, so it seems it's at professional level is where it begins,the fear of losing negates a more expansive attacking formation,when do we see a so-called bums off the seat player,faddy was the last one for me, wee winger that played for scotland recently did that,out and out wingers are a rarity nowadays that's why we have wing backs,maswanhisi in his short time on park gave me that bit of excitement but was obviously not seen as a player that could win us the game,as a guy that played as a defender not at a high level mind you coming up against a forward that was direct with pace frightened the hell out of me,thought watt was off pace last night,but maybe him/sparrow maswanhisi,ap would put fear into defences and maybe entertain fans but it ain't going to happen.

[David]

2 hours ago, Mccus28 said:

Lennon has been poor for weeks now and I assume its because he has been given the captains armband.

I could be mistaken, but I’d attribute it more to his youth. With youth comes inconsistency—it’s inevitable.

As for quality and entertainment, no matter what fans might think, those will always take a back seat to results. I’ve yet to see a club at the foot of the table with fans delighted simply because they’re playing entertaining football.

People’s livelihoods are at stake—managers, players, and even backroom staff. Relegation can mean the difference between someone keeping their job in the office or getting their P45. Last time I checked, you can’t pay your rent with entertainment tokens in place of wages.

I don’t for a moment believe any club in Scotland deliberately sets out to play poorly, but they’ll do whatever is necessary to get results. Sometimes that means an exciting 4-3 like we saw against United, and other times it’s the grind of a 1-1 like last night.

I’ve also long supported the idea of summer football. I realise most people aren’t in favour, which is fair enough, but when matches are played in dreadful conditions—rain lashing down, wind howling, fans freezing and soaked—it’s bound to affect the quality on the pitch.

Countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Latvia, and Lithuania all run their seasons from March to November, and there’s good reason for it. We’ve chosen not to, so we have to accept that on a cold, wet, and windy December night, the football will often reflect the weather.

 

[steelman1991]

13 minutes ago, David said:

rain lashing down, wind howling, fans freezing and soaked

That IS our summer 🤣

[David]

13 minutes ago, steelman1991 said:

That IS our summer 🤣

That's true 😂

[FirParkCornerExile]

11 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I can't agree. He gave us red and yellow cards. 

he gave us a foul when he should have given Kilmarnock a penalty.

[FirParkCornerExile]

11 hours ago, Mintymac said:

Ok let’s get the overall discussion of the game first . 
Imo lucky to get a point , poor spectacle , Killie worked hard for there point and could have won it 2nd half .

Then the sending off . WTF . Seriously that was ridiculous/embarrassing. No matter how you try to analyse that if that’s a sending of then OMG might be time to Chuck it . 
If that’s not overturned 😳.

To be given a chance to correct his decision then stick to his guns is beyond ridiculous. Who is this guy . Is he actually a referee

correct we were lucky to get a point , Kilmarnock denied a stonewall penalty. We were abysmal everywhere.

[FirParkCornerExile]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

When VAR first came in I used to get annoyed if a decision went against us and  loved to see the disappointment on the faces of the oposition when it went against them. A bit of excitement and drama like the novelty of a new toy 

Months later I'm just annoyed permanently with it and would gladly toss it in the bin and I'm sure 99% of fans feel the same.

The novelty has well and truly worn off.

Last night was a prime example where the use of VAR should have corrected a wrong and the process worked until an arsehole of a referee decided to be a dick. Its not the technology that is the problem. I hate VAR but does it allow officials to correct more mistakes than they miss? yes it does. Bin it and these utter fuckwits who are getting highlighted every week will have a free reign to have infinitely more shocking decisions.

Also ask yourselves this , they use VAR in the English Premiership. We all watch it every week. How many of their games are dominated by VAR discussions after the game? Damn few, why is that ? Because the standard of our referees is abysmal and we have a cheap rate version of VAR.

[Electric Blues]

59 minutes ago, David said:

I’ve yet to see a club at the foot of the table with fans delighted simply because they’re playing entertaining football.

Not delighted, I'll grant you, but St Johnstone fans currently seem to be fairly positive about how Simo's got them playing, despite sitting just one point off the bottom after a run of poor results. Mind you, if things don't pick up for them after the January window, it'll be interesting to see how quickly they turn on him.

[wellfan]

Our current league position speaks for itself, so fair enough, but it’s also a reflection of how poor a lot of teams around us are this season. Notwithstanding, we were utter garbage last night and a draw was a fair result. It was the wrong starting 11 and subs were made too late to be effective. We badly need a striker that fits Kettlewell’s preferred system and a midfielder to solidify the heart of the team. 

[santheman]

30 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Last night was a prime example where the use of VAR should have corrected a wrong and the process worked until an arsehole of a referee decided to be a dick. Its not the technology that is the problem. I hate VAR but does it allow officials to correct more mistakes than they miss? yes it does. Bin it and these utter fuckwits who are getting highlighted every week will have a free reign to have infinitely more shocking decisions.

Also ask yourselves this , they use VAR in the English Premiership. We all watch it every week. How many of their games are dominated by VAR discussions after the game? Damn few, why is that ? Because the standard of our referees is abysmal and we have a cheap rate version of VAR.

And therein lies the crux of the problem.

A new toy is only good if you know how to work it properly and a lot of our referees obviously don't.

If English referees used the same criteria for fouls that they seem to use up here the EPL would be seeing 2/3 ordering offs per game and a penalty awarded at every corner.

I do agree that's just differing refereeing standards and not a fault of VAR but its concerning at the amount of the same types of wrong VAR calls that are being highlighted at review.

It's all fine Collum issuing apologies but something needs done about the standard of referees and the VAR team when they're continually getting things wrong.

As you say it's not as big an issue down south where there's vast resources to throw at it but we are using the bargain basement version  that's currently not fit for purpose imo.

 

 

[santheman]

I'll just leave this in here.

Ones a red card the other doesn't even get a finger wagging.

https://x.com/BlairKaylor/status/1870221854289322495?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1870221854289322495|twgr^5d501dbabbaa819f5477f6eae3dd24b9e43f2e64|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.pieandbovril.com%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fx.com%2FBlairKaylor%2Fstatus%2F1870221854289322495

[Kmcalpin]

52 minutes ago, Electric Blues said:

Not delighted, I'll grant you, but St Johnstone fans currently seem to be fairly positive about how Simo's got them playing, despite sitting just one point off the bottom after a run of poor results. 

I've got a lot of time for St Johnstone fans. A generalisation I know, but they tend to be more modest and pragmatic than us. All they want is success on the field. They're not overly fussed how that's achieved. They're delighted to sit through shitfests as long as the team wins by a single goal.

[joewarkfanclub]

3 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I agree with the first part, McInnes has made an entire managerial career out of shitfesting it.

I'm not sure I agree with the second part.  He's the sort of the definition of Scottish football's tactical backwardness.

You can be tactically astute and still employ negative tactics.

Not all managers have the first part. The second part is just a choice.

[SteelmaninOZ]

 

 

[joewarkfanclub]

Not sure I agree that you cant play attacking football if you cant afford technical players.

With that argument, on our budget, SK would be fully entitled to play negative football all the time.

I think the frustration for a lot of our fans is that we have had glimpses of more expansive attacking football when we get our better players in their right positions and let them play.

Of course that all depends on how the opposition sets up and how they effect your gameplan. Last night was a good example of that.

I didnt disagree with the starting 11 last night because we know what kind of game you are getting against a McInnes team. 

My beef with SK this week is that once again his subs were reactive instead of pro-active.

At 1-0 we should have been trying to change it up and reinforce our lead rather than just waiting and hoping Killie wouldnt score.

Halliday and Paton were always going to tire. We should have got on the front foot at that point and gave them something to think about at the back rather than giving them free reign to change their attacking options.

Davor was such a negative substitution and he was one of those involved in the lead up to Polworths goal.

I wouldnt have started Maswanhise. But he should have been on at 60 minutes.

[texanwellfan]

2 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

he gave us a foul when he should have given Kilmarnock a penalty.

Having said that though thee was a clear shirt pull on AP as ran on to a ball in the box. No whistle no VAR