Are Motherwell Entertaining?

[wellgirl]

49 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Motherwell are 10th out of 12 in total league attendances this season.

I don't have accurate up to date wage info but one of the clubs marginally below us (St Johnstone 5,602 v us 5,748) have traditionally paid higher wages than we have.

I don't know how true it was but it was claimed only Livingston had a smaller budget than us last season.

We are a bottom 3 club in this league and if Falkirk come up next season we'll be a bottom 2 club.  If you don't believe me Falkirk got 1,500 more fans in their last home match against Queen's Park than we did against Aberdeen with a big travelling support.  

A lot of our fans need a long hard introductory course in reality.

Our extended stay at the top level has made some of our fans think we are far bigger and better club but we've escaped relegation on technicities three times and that's not including a relegation play off.

For us to be in the Top 6 is a tremendous achievement.  If we finish in or around it that will be an excellent season.

If you don't like the standard of modern Scottish football, I sympathise with you.  But don't put that on a manager or club officials or staff.  Aberdeen and Hearts played out one of the most woeful matches you will ever see at the weekend and they have facilities and a budget we could only dream of. 

I've seen bad, good and indifferent performances this season.  Same as every other season.  Like I've said over and over the standard in Scottish football is a shadow of what it was in the 80's and 90's but that shadow casts a pall over the whole league.  I try and watch as many games as possible and the standard elsewhere is pretty much the same as we watch at Fir Park.

 

 

 

Just introductory  (I'm joking). 

Great post. I do understand people's frustrations but I think our management and players get too much undue criticism at times. 

[David]

1 hour ago, Big Stall said:

And how about when we appear to make no effort to actually try and win the game?

I've talked about this subject before, where it "appears" as though we're happy to sit back and so forth, when in reality, I believe that much of that is to do with the opponent pushing forward. 

I don't believe for a second that outwith the games against the Old Firm, we go into any match actively not trying to win. 

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Motherwell are 10th out of 12 in total league attendances this season.

I don't have accurate up to date wage info but one of the clubs marginally below us (St Johnstone 5,602 v us 5,748) have traditionally paid higher wages than we have.

I don't know how true it was but it was claimed only Livingston had a smaller budget than us last season.

We are a bottom 3 club in this league and if Falkirk come up next season we'll be a bottom 2 club.  If you don't believe me Falkirk got 1,500 more fans in their last home match against Queen's Park than we did against Aberdeen with a big travelling support.  

A lot of our fans need a long hard introductory course in reality.

Our extended stay at the top level has made some of our fans think we are far bigger and better club but we've escaped relegation on technicities three times and that's not including a relegation play off.

For us to be in the Top 6 is a tremendous achievement.  If we finish in or around it that will be an excellent season.

I agree with some of your points. In terms of attendances last season, yes, we were 10th. In terms of averages, St Johnstone were 1,200 below us, Kilmarnock about 800 above us; and St Mirren about 900 above us. If St Mirren have a poor season(or average for them)  then watch their attendances drop.  Yes, Falkirk does have quite a big support but teams winning the Championship generally do.  If the Grangemouth petrochemical complex closes then watch their crowds plummet.  Its always dangerous to quote one off figures, but our attendance against Aberdeen was badly affected by the weather that day.

We are a bottom 6 club in the pecking order; but still one of Scotland's biggest clubs. Success for me this season will be 7th or 8th place, as that represents progress compared to last season and I agree with your general point about a top 6 finish. 

In terms of turnover, I don't know how St Johnstone do it. Yes, they cashed in on a dream move to McDiarmid Park but now "only" have £2.8m of that windfall left in the bank. In their most recent set of accounts, they achieved a turnover of over £6m with smaller crowds than us and no transfer income. They do have a thriving hopsitlaity stream but that wouldn't account for huge sums. 

I'm quite content to see us win and pick up points.  Personally I'd be quite happy to for us to emulate Jim MacLean's Dundee United. 20% possession, 2 shots on goal, 1 goal scored and none conceded. In an ideal world I'd like to see us play open attacking football but that isn't always possible.    

[Big Stall]

1 hour ago, David said:

I've talked about this subject before, where it "appears" as though we're happy to sit back and so forth, when in reality, I believe that much of that is to do with the opponent pushing forward. 

I don't believe for a second that outwith the games against the Old Firm, we go into any match actively not trying to win. 

Im sure we dont activley do it, but we certainly do not go out to enforce our game on the opposition & make chances to win. You mention the old firm & if you take Rangers, this is the head scratching example.

Semi final, Rangers were in dire straights leading up to that game & low on confidence. We deliberatley sat back & allowed them to dictate. Countless examples of Seddon getting to half way line with acres of space infront of him to progress forward but he would stop & play a diagonal ball. A clear instruction. We then followed up with similarly toothless displays against Ross C & Hibs.

Contrast that with the December game against Rangers where we set out to do damage & managed to carry it off. Last 15 mins v Kilmarnock at Fir Park, down to 10 men we hsve a go & look as dynamic as we have done all season. Its astonishing that we clearly have players with enough guile to take the game to our opponents yet our manager is happy to keep them shakled.

Iv said it before, he shouldnt get sacked but he is not learning from his mistakes. 

[David]

6 minutes ago, Big Stall said:

Im sure we dont activley do it, but we certainly do not go out to enforce our game on the opposition & make chances to win. You mention the old firm & if you take Rangers, this is the head scratching example.

Semi final, Rangers were in dire straights leading up to that game & low on confidence. We deliberatley sat back & allowed them to dictate. Countless examples of Seddon getting to half way line with acres of space infront of him to progress forward but he would stop & play a diagonal ball. A clear instruction. We then followed up with similarly toothless displays against Ross C & Hibs.

Contrast that with the December game against Rangers where we set out to do damage & managed to carry it off. Last 15 mins v Kilmarnock at Fir Park, down to 10 men we hsve a go & look as dynamic as we have done all season. Its astonishing that we clearly have players with enough guile to take the game to our opponents yet our manager is happy to keep them shakled.

Iv said it before, he shouldnt get sacked but he is not learning from his mistakes. 

When it comes to the manager and coaching team, I'm reluctant to second-guess them after the fact. They’re hired for a reason, and their decisions often involve details we might not see from the stands. After all, there's a reason why they're being paid to do the job while we're paying to watch them.

You mentioned our recent games against Rangers. Though it was the same opponent, both matches played out differently potentially because of changes in the lineups and formation. Rangers made seven changes, and we made four. Naturally, this influenced how both teams approached the game.

Managers make tactical decisions based on a mix of factors such as the team’s strengths, the opposition’s setup, and the specific demands of the match all based on who's available and fit. They balance risks, adjust to changing situations, and try to account for things like pitch conditions, player fatigue, and even weather.

Football is unpredictable at the best of times, and no amount of preparation can remove the element of chaos. If even Pep can go through a spell where he looks like a dumpling, it can happen to anyone.

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

56 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I agree with some of your points. In terms of attendances last season, yes, we were 10th. In terms of averages, St Johnstone were 1,200 below us, Kilmarnock about 800 above us; and St Mirren about 900 above us. If St Mirren have a poor season(or average for them)  then watch their attendances drop.  Yes, Falkirk does have quite a big support but teams winning the Championship generally do.  If the Grangemouth petrochemical complex closes then watch their crowds plummet.  Its always dangerous to quote one off figures, but our attendance against Aberdeen was badly affected by the weather that day.

We are a bottom 6 club in the pecking order; but still one of Scotland's biggest clubs. Success for me this season will be 7th or 8th place, as that represents progress compared to last season and I agree with your general point about a top 6 finish. 

In terms of turnover, I don't know how St Johnstone do it. Yes, they cashed in on a dream move to McDiarmid Park but now "only" have £2.8m of that windfall left in the bank. In their most recent set of accounts, they achieved a turnover of over £6m with smaller crowds than us and no transfer income. They do have a thriving hopsitlaity stream but that wouldn't account for huge sums. 

I'm quite content to see us win and pick up points.  Personally I'd be quite happy to for us to emulate Jim MacLean's Dundee United. 20% possession, 2 shots on goal, 1 goal scored and none conceded. In an ideal world I'd like to see us play open attacking football but that isn't always possible.    

Having both Dundee teams in the league is a big boost to St Johnstone's attendances.  They are only 146 behind us currently.

This season's attendances so far after 11 or 12 home matches.

1. Celtic - 58,585

2. Rangers - 47,584

3. Hearts - 18,567

4. Aberdeen - 17,805

5. Hibernian - 16,615

6. Dundee United - 10,641

7. Dundee - 6,822

8. St. Mirren - 6,780

9. Kilmarnock - 6,440

10. Motherwell - 5,748

11. St Johnstone 5,602

12. Ross County - 4,498

Kilmarnock, the team above us in this table, generally pay about 20% more in wages than we do.

The team below us, St Johnstone, are closer to us in wages but still pay more.

I think that kind of gives you some kind of perspective of what we are up against.

 

[dennyc]

2 hours ago, David said:

 

I don't believe for a second that outwith the games against the Old Firm, we go into any match actively not trying to win. 

The first half performances, tactics and set ups at Tynecastle, Rugby Park and Easter Road suggest otherwise. They suggest a Manager desperate to avoid defeat rather than a Manager setting out to win. Persisting with those same tactics three away games in a row was madness given previous outcomes and reeks of stubbornness or an inability to come up with alternatives. Those three teams have been inconsistent (shite) all season and are not teams we should have been frightened to have a go at. Every one of them was as fragile as we are. Kettlewell handed them the initiative right from kick off so it was not a big ask for them to push forward. We did nothing to stop them. In the first half against those three teams, how many attempts on goal did we have, never mind attempts that tested their goalkeepers?

As for not trying to win against the Old Firm, do you really believe we did not try to beat Rangers a few games ago? Had our Manager adopted that same approach to those three away games perhaps we would have gotten a better return than the miracle point we stole from Kilmarnock. God knows what his approach will be if the downward trend continues and we drift nearer the relegation battle.

Your defence of Kettlewell is robust. But I wonder how many of those fans that spent good money to attend those three away fixtures agree with you. Those fans were short changed on and off the pitch. A repeat on Saturday and even the most fervent Kettlewell supporter must surely be asking questions. The two positives from Sunday were Andrews and Slattery so let's see if Kettlewell is prepared to utilise them in a more positive set up. Or will you be happy to see a repeat of our recent away matches, with wing backs overrun, midfield short staffed,  little attacking intent until we fall behind with attack minded players introduced later on. There is absolutely no reason why we cannot adopt the same attacking intent from the start as we show in the last 15 minutes of a game.

The question. Are Motherwell entertaining? On recent showings most definitely not and it is often a chore going along. Some of that may be down to injuries. But that is a ready excuse which should not be used to excuse all things Kettlewell. Other teams from top to bottom of our League have suffered injury setbacks, and some to top players. Our current League position is also used to dampen criticism of our style but it could be argued that the self same healthy League placing is a reason to be more adventurous given that security blanket. .....although that placing is not so healthy following recent performances.

Perhaps given that Saturday is a cup tie we might be a bit more adventurous than in away league games of late. We might even be entertained. I'll believe it when I see it.

[David]

18 minutes ago, dennyc said:

The first half performances, tactics and set ups at Tynecastle, Rugby Park and Easter Road suggest otherwise. They suggest a Manager desperate to avoid defeat rather than a Manager setting out to win. Persisting with those same tactics three away games in a row was madness given previous outcomes and reeks of stubbornness or an inability to come up with alternatives. Those three teams have been inconsistent (shite) all season and are not teams we should have been frightened to have a go at. Every one of them was as fragile as we are. Kettlewell handed them the initiative right from kick off so it was not a big ask for them to push forward. We did nothing to stop them. In the first half against those three teams, how many attempts on goal did we have, never mind attempts that tested their goalkeepers?

Kettlewell’s approach to setting up the team has, by and large, been effective. When you compare us to the teams you’ve mentioned – all of which operate with larger budgets, two of them being much bigger clubs in major cities – the results speak for themselves. We’ve won two more matches than Hibs and three more than both Kilmarnock and Hearts.

Of course, if we were to go on a poor run of form and start slipping down the table, there would naturally be questions to address. However, it’s difficult to criticise the manager for sticking to the tactics and strategies that have placed us in the top six during the first half of the season.

It’s also worth bearing in mind that, particularly in the cases of Hearts and Hibs, even though their form has been below par, they still have squads that, on paper, are stronger than ours. In fact, I’d be far more concerned if our manager were to approach games against sides with the quality of players they possess under the assumption that they’re merely "inconsistent shite".

24 minutes ago, dennyc said:

As for not trying to win against the Old Firm, do you really believe we did not try to beat Rangers a few games ago? Had our Manager adopted that same approach to those three away games perhaps we would have gotten a better return than the miracle point we stole from Kilmarnock. God knows what his approach will be if the downward trend continues and we drift nearer the relegation battle.

Many of the factors I’ve previously mentioned come into play here. If managing at the top level were as straightforward as setting up your team and saying, "Just play the same way we did against Rangers, and we’ll be fine," it would be an incredibly simple job. But the reality is far more complex. Every match presents unique challenges. We face different opponents with varying styles, on different pitches, in changing weather conditions. Add to that the fact that our own players are at different stages of fitness and dealing with varying levels of fatigue, and the situation becomes even more intricate.

This isn’t an excuse, by the way—just the plain truth. These are the variables we have to contend with, whether we like it or not.

26 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Your defence of Kettlewell is robust. But I wonder how many of those fans that spent good money to attend those three away fixtures agree with you. Those fans were short changed on and off the pitch.

I assume those fans are Motherwell supporters, and as such, they’re fully aware of what they’re paying to watch. It’s no secret. Like the majority of teams in Scottish football, the style of play isn’t exactly easy on the eye, and the quality often suffers due to the conditions we insist on enduring by sticking to the frankly baffling decision to play through the winter months.

Put Barcelona or Real Madrid on that Rugby Park pitch in -3°C temperatures during a typical Scottish winter and see how much free-flowing football they manage to produce.

In a sense, fans know exactly what they’re signing up for. We’re all well aware of the standard of the product on offer.

29 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Are Motherwell entertaining?

On the whole, we’re neither more nor less entertaining than most teams that compete at our level.

Here’s a question to consider: should producing exciting, entertaining football be part of a manager’s job at a club like ours? I don’t claim to know more than the average fan, but I’d imagine the main measure of success is avoiding relegation first and foremost, aiming for a top-six finish if possible, putting together a decent cup run, and perhaps developing players we can eventually sell on for a profit.

Right now, we’re not in the relegation zone, we’re sitting in the top six, we’ve made it to a cup semi-final, and we’ve got a few players in the squad who look like they could grow into assets that bring in some money for the club.

So, is that success for the manager? It’s a genuine question. Or is he expected to achieve all of that—likely on one of the smallest budgets in the league—while also delivering football that’s exciting and entertaining to watch?

Maybe the real question is about the manager’s actual remit and the KPIs he’s been given. If the targets set by the club are broadly what we think they are, then he’s delivering. And it’s worth remembering that the last time we let go of a manager who was meeting those kinds of expectations but who the fans wanted more from, we ended up in a right mess, with the club spiralling into chaos for a while.

Saying that, I do know a few fans of other clubs who found that whole saga quite entertaining, if nothing else!

[wellgirl]

2 hours ago, Big Stall said:

Im sure we dont activley do it, but we certainly do not go out to enforce our game on the opposition & make chances to win. You mention the old firm & if you take Rangers, this is the head scratching example.

Semi final, Rangers were in dire straights leading up to that game & low on confidence. We deliberatley sat back & allowed them to dictate. Countless examples of Seddon getting to half way line with acres of space infront of him to progress forward but he would stop & play a diagonal ball. A clear instruction. We then followed up with similarly toothless displays against Ross C & Hibs.

Contrast that with the December game against Rangers where we set out to do damage & managed to carry it off. Last 15 mins v Kilmarnock at Fir Park, down to 10 men we hsve a go & look as dynamic as we have done all season. Its astonishing that we clearly have players with enough guile to take the game to our opponents yet our manager is happy to keep them shakled.

Iv said it before, he shouldnt get sacked but he is not learning from his mistakes. 

Do you honestly think if Seddon was in a position where he might pass the ball to someone who might see a scoring opportunity that he's going to stop and go - hold on I can't do that because my manager told me not to. I saw someone on Facebook at the weekend saying that Kettlewell was screaming at his players to play the ball forward

[wellgirl]

52 minutes ago, dennyc said:

The first half performances, tactics and set ups at Tynecastle, Rugby Park and Easter Road suggest otherwise. They suggest a Manager desperate to avoid defeat rather than a Manager setting out to win. Persisting with those same tactics three away games in a row was madness given previous outcomes and reeks of stubbornness or an inability to come up with alternatives. Those three teams have been inconsistent (shite) all season and are not teams we should have been frightened to have a go at. Every one of them was as fragile as we are. Kettlewell handed them the initiative right from kick off so it was not a big ask for them to push forward. We did nothing to stop them. In the first half against those three teams, how many attempts on goal did we have, never mind attempts that tested their goalkeepers?

As for not trying to win against the Old Firm, do you really believe we did not try to beat Rangers a few games ago? Had our Manager adopted that same approach to those three away games perhaps we would have gotten a better return than the miracle point we stole from Kilmarnock. God knows what his approach will be if the downward trend continues and we drift nearer the relegation battle.

Your defence of Kettlewell is robust. But I wonder how many of those fans that spent good money to attend those three away fixtures agree with you. Those fans were short changed on and off the pitch. A repeat on Saturday and even the most fervent Kettlewell supporter must surely be asking questions. The two positives from Sunday were Andrews and Slattery so let's see if Kettlewell is prepared to utilise them in a more positive set up. Or will you be happy to see a repeat of our recent away matches, with wing backs overrun, midfield short staffed,  little attacking intent until we fall behind with attack minded players introduced later on. There is absolutely no reason why we cannot adopt the same attacking intent from the start as we show in the last 15 minutes of a game.

The question. Are Motherwell entertaining? On recent showings most definitely not and it is often a chore going along. Some of that may be down to injuries. But that is a ready excuse which should not be used to excuse all things Kettlewell. Other teams from top to bottom of our League have suffered injury setbacks, and some to top players. Our current League position is also used to dampen criticism of our style but it could be argued that the self same healthy League placing is a reason to be more adventurous given that security blanket. .....although that placing is not so healthy following recent performances.

Perhaps given that Saturday is a cup tie we might be a bit more adventurous than in away league games of late. We might even be entertained. I'll believe it when I see it.

I personally don't think this is all on Kettlewell - do you think he doesn't want us to win games? 

[joewarkfanclub]

6 hours ago, David said:

I feel the same way if we lose a turgid game 1-0 or if we lose an exciting and entertaining game 4-3. 

Ooft! Thats rough.

I can make peace with the exciting 4-3 much quicker.

Im getting older, I dont like to waste what time I have left!

😆😆😆

[Orinoco]

The definition of entertaining is providing amusement or enjoyment. You could argue that our attempts to defend are amusing. Granted that's a feeling felt by the opposition. The joy surely comes from whether we win or lose or a goal scored. So taking hibs game, in our own way we were very entertaining. 

Perhaps the question should  be, do we try to achieve our targets by playing negatively? The answer is yes we do. We try to be competitive against teams with better resources taking into consideration our players form and fitness. Is it pretty to watch, no! but it's got us 31 points and a good chance of survival in a league where modern football is all about money and what a club can afford to spend on their team on the pitch. Just look at Aberdeen splashing the cash just now. Whether that's sensible who knows, but it's the modern way, where instant results matter more than long term player development. Society has changed for the worst. No hiding places, no patience and unrealistic expectations. 

After all that, was that not why we tried to get extra funding? Just so we can  continue to compete against teams spending money, even if they run up huge debts. 

I would love us to play an attacking all out style. But it's never going to happen. We will never have 10 outfield players good enough. Bigger clubs with the odd exception have hoovered  up all the promising youngsters. 

The injuries this season are mental.  Although the system we play is broadly the same, players in the team are not. Perhaps if things settle and full fitness and confidence returns we might alter our approach to games. 

Scottish football at the level we are, does not allow any scope for teams to play anything other than survival tactics. To many jobs are at risk if a club fails.

[dennyc]

26 minutes ago, David said:

Kettlewell’s approach to setting up the team has, by and large, been effective. When you compare us to the teams you’ve mentioned – all of which operate with larger budgets, two of them being much bigger clubs in major cities – the results speak for themselves. We’ve won two more matches than Hibs and three more than both Kilmarnock and Hearts.

Of course, if we were to go on a poor run of form and start slipping down the table, there would naturally be questions to address. However, it’s difficult to criticise the manager for sticking to the tactics and strategies that have placed us in the top six during the first half of the season.

I

Given those clubs record you highlight, it is even more disappointing that we were so timid when facing them.

Some would say we are on a poor run right now and are drifting downwards.

26 minutes ago, David said:

 

Many of the factors I’ve previously mentioned come into play here. If managing at the top level were as straightforward as setting up your team and saying, "Just play the same way we did against Rangers, and we’ll be fine," it would be an incredibly simple job. But the reality is far more complex. Every match presents unique challenges. We face different opponents with varying styles, on different pitches, in changing weather conditions. Add to that the fact that our own players are at different stages of fitness and dealing with varying levels of fatigue, and the situation becomes even more intricate.

 

Perhaps it is about attitude, positivity and carrying previous successes into games in addition to those factors you list. The impetus we had after the Aberdeen victory is gone. And that's not just down to the players.

Perhaps it is about not repeating an approach to away games that has failed miserably three games in a row and hands our opponents a head start. Perhaps it is about learning from previous outcomes and being less predictable.  We did not do ourselves justice at Hearts, Killie or Hibs. Had we shown up, competed but still only amassed one point I would be more supportive of our Manager. But we didn't. Each game was a mirror of the previous one. Rinse and repeat.

26 minutes ago, David said:

 

I assume those fans are Motherwell supporters, and as such, they’re fully aware of what they’re paying to watch.

 

 

So we should just accept what we have been served up recently and stop demanding improvement? Not for me. And not for any of the fans sitting beside me at Easter Road who certainly voiced their opinion at how little we offered. I did not hear one of them praising Kettlewell for what we were being asked to accept. It was also noticeable that the number of 'Well fans at the game was far less than at Easter Road earlier in the season. Even The Bois, who deserve praise for the support they offered, were much reduced. Maybe partly due to the weather but I fear Tynecastle and Rugby Park played a part. 3900 home fans v Aberdeen. I wonder how many will be at the next Fir Park match should we fail twice in Perth. Or at the next away game where Season Tickets do not play a part. So in answer to another of your points.....Yes, I do believe a Manager has a responsibility to enable performances that do not drive fans away. Irrespective of injuries or who our opponents are.

Out of curiosity, what did you think of the performance in Edinburgh, particularly that first half? Or at those other two games. Because you knew what to expect, did the performance not really matter?

[wellgirl]

33 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

The definition of entertaining is providing amusement or enjoyment. You could argue that our attempts to defend are amusing. Granted that's a feeling felt by the opposition. The joy surely comes from whether we win or lose or a goal scored. So taking hibs game, in our own way we were very entertaining. 

Perhaps the question should  be, do we try to achieve our targets by playing negatively? The answer is yes we do. We try to be competitive against teams with better resources taking into consideration our players form and fitness. Is it pretty to watch, no! but it's got us 31 points and a good chance of survival in a league where modern football is all about money and what a club can afford to spend on their team on the pitch. Just look at Aberdeen splashing the cash just now. Whether that's sensible who knows, but it's the modern way, where instant results matter more than long term player development. Society has changed for the worst. No hiding places, no patience and unrealistic expectations. 

After all that, was that not why we tried to get extra funding? Just so we can  continue to compete against teams spending money, even if they run up huge debts. 

I would love us to play an attacking all out style. But it's never going to happen. We will never have 10 outfield players good enough. Bigger clubs with the odd exception have hoovered  up all the promising youngsters. 

The injuries this season are mental.  Although the system we play is broadly the same, players in the team are not. Perhaps if things settle and full fitness and confidence returns we might alter our approach to games. 

Scottish football at the level we are, does not allow any scope for teams to play anything other than survival tactics. To many jobs are at risk if a club fails.

We do need a cash injection. That's clear. 

[dennyc]

57 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

I personally don't think this is all on Kettlewell - do you think he doesn't want us to win games? 

I think he does want us to win every game we play. But I think his fear of losing makes him over cautious at times and hands our opponents a head start. Especially away from home. We got away with it at Dundee United and even more fortunately at Kilmarnock. But a more positive approach could well have gained us points at Ross County Hearts and Hibs. And I think he overthinks things at times. Trying to be too clever perhaps?

Once a poor run gains impetus it is much harder to turn things round. No one wants a repeat of last season, or anywhere near that poor run. I do think Kettlewell has qualities and supported him through that bad spell last year. But these recent away performances have raised huge doubts in my mind.

Clearly it is not all down to Kettlewell but he sets the tone. If players are not following instruction or are underperforming he is the one that has the power to chance things. Even allowing for injuries he still has options. Per my earlier post, Wash Rinse Repeat is fine for a while when winning. But him repeating the same approach those last three away games is baffling. Saturday was painful.

On a cheerier note, welcome back Callum!

[fizoxy]

I don't think we set up particularly defensively. We have 2-3 attackers and push our wingbacks high, particularly on the right.  There have also been very few games in SKs tenure where we haven't been competitive and in the game in the latter stages, and we rarely shut up shop when ahead (i wish we would sometimes). We tend to be slow and deliberate at the start of games, but we've had our fair share of games where we've scored early too. The opposition have a say in that too.

It looks like the players are being asked to play through the lines from the back, but they panic and punt it instead because most teams know hown to press to prevent that. As you saw on Saturday, making mistakes when trying to play through midfield can lead to bad things.  That means we either don't have the ability to play that way, or aren't being coached to stick to it regardless.

My opinion is that our players are largely not that good. Good coaches will make the most of the players they have (let's park the recruitment side, because that's it's own issue), so maybe 31 points from this lot at this point of the season is a good return? How many of our team would be a regular starter for other teams in the league? Miller? 

[wellgirl]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

I think he does want us to win every game we play. But I think his fear of losing makes him over cautious at times and hands our opponents a head start. Especially away from home. We got away with it at Dundee United and even more fortunately at Kilmarnock. But a more positive approach could well have gained us points at Ross County Hearts and Hibs. And I think he overthinks things at times. Trying to be too clever perhaps?

Once a poor run gains impetus it is much harder to turn things round. No one wants a repeat of last season, or anywhere near that poor run. I do think Kettlewell has qualities and supported him through that bad spell last year. But these recent away performances have raised huge doubts in my mind.

Clearly it is not all down to Kettlewell but he sets the tone. If players are not following instruction or are underperforming he is the one that has the power to chance things. Even allowing for injuries he still has options. Per my earlier post, Wash Rinse Repeat is fine for a while when winning. But him repeating the same approach those last three away games is baffling. Saturday was painful.

On a cheerier note, welcome back Callum!

Yes. Welcome back the very lovely Callum Slattery!!! 

[wellfan]

This graphic shows that we consistently concede more goals than we score in the opening 15 mins of the first half and same again in the first 30 mins of the second half. We’re also the worst team for it in the first 15 mins of the second half.

A few more interesting patterns can be seen for us and others, but these are clearly the most concerning stats for me. They highlight that we do generally set up to be passive, at the start of both halves, and aren’t very good at it.

This approach isn’t entertaining and, based on these stats, it means we’re likely to concede more than we score by the end of the season.  

https://x.com/scotlandscoeff1/status/1878778263897538800?s=46&t=wehikD-exiutCByWu64YEQ

[David]

11 hours ago, dennyc said:

Given those clubs record you highlight, it is even more disappointing that we were so timid when facing them.

Some would say we are on a poor run right now and are drifting downwards.

I didn’t single out those clubs – you did. I simply responded. And, frankly, you’ve completely disregarded my points about the quality of players. How many of our players would walk straight into the Hibs or Hearts squads? And how many of theirs would make it into ours? Yes, those teams may not be performing cohesively at the moment (although Hibs are unbeaten in their last five matches and Hearts have only lost one in the same stretch, so it could be argued they’re starting to find their rhythm). Still, they’re clearly not playing to the standard expected, given the calibre of their squads. That, more than anything, likely comes down to coaching and management. Meanwhile, you could argue that we’re exceeding expectations by comparison, which is also a credit to our coaching and management.

When it comes to budget, club stature, and player quality, the top six in Scotland this season should, in most cases, include Rangers, Celtic, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hearts, and Hibs in some order.

As for our current form, some might say we’re on a poor run. I wouldn’t go that far, but I can see why others might feel that way. However, as with most things, context is key. Everyone knew that facing six matches in sixteen days – essentially a game every 3.2 days – would severely test the depth of our squad. We’re simply not the sort of club with the resources to field a squad capable of handling such a gruelling schedule without consequences.

On top of that, let’s not forget who we were up against during that period: Celtic away, Rangers at home three days later, Hearts away, Aberdeen at home, Kilmarnock on that dreadful plastic pitch, and Hibs away. And that doesn’t even account for the fact we lost some of our most important players during that time – our best player, our goalkeeper, our new striker, and our captain were all sidelined by injuries.

When I look back on that spell, I think taking a point against Rangers, three against Aberdeen, and another point at Kilmarnock is a respectable return.

Before that difficult run, we’d had two poor results against Hibs and Dundee, which weren’t good enough. But following that, we took seven points from three games – a win at St Mirren, a victory over Dundee United at home, and a point against Kilmarnock.

Now that the intense stretch of fixtures is behind us, we’ve had a week to rest and reset, and we’re ready to go again on Saturday.

12 hours ago, dennyc said:

Perhaps it is about attitude, positivity and carrying previous successes into games in addition to those factors you list. The impetus we had after the Aberdeen victory is gone. And that's not just down to the players.

Perhaps it is about not repeating an approach to away games that has failed miserably three games in a row and hands our opponents a head start. Perhaps it is about learning from previous outcomes and being less predictable.  We did not do ourselves justice at Hearts, Killie or Hibs. Had we shown up, competed but still only amassed one point I would be more supportive of our Manager. But we didn't. Each game was a mirror of the previous one. Rinse and repeat.

Could those factors be at play? Possibly. But just as you might argue they could be, I can equally argue they might not. That’s precisely why I prefer to focus on certainties whenever possible. Those factors you mention might have influenced things, but the reality is we face opponents with differing styles, on various pitches, in constantly changing weather conditions. Our own players are at different stages of fitness and coping with varying degrees of fatigue, all while playing a match every 3.2 days on average.

There’s no "perhaps" about what I’ve just outlined. Those are indisputable facts, and I’d rather consider them first before speculating about other factors that might have an impact.

12 hours ago, dennyc said:

So we should just accept what we have been served up recently and stop demanding improvement?

Of course, it’s fair to look for improvement. However, to demand it without considering the factors I’ve outlined above comes across as a bit unrealistic, in my view.

That said, if you believe that a club with our budget – and, as a result, the squad depth and quality that come with it – should be performing at 100% while playing a match every 3.2 days over a period of more than two weeks, all while delivering entertaining football, missing some of our key players, and contending with some rather challenging conditions, then you’re entitled to that opinion.

12 hours ago, dennyc said:

It was also noticeable that the number of 'Well fans at the game was far less than at Easter Road earlier in the season. Even The Bois, who deserve praise for the support they offered, were much reduced. Maybe partly due to the weather but I fear Tynecastle and Rugby Park played a part. 3900 home fans v Aberdeen. I wonder how many will be at the next Fir Park match should we fail twice in Perth. Or at the next away game where Season Tickets do not play a part.

We’ll revisit those figures in a few months, once the weather has improved and the fixture schedule has eased up a bit. This time of year is typically one where many people have less disposable income, so it’s no surprise the numbers might be affected. I’ll gladly take a closer look at the attendance stats down the line.

12 hours ago, dennyc said:

So in answer to another of your points.....Yes, I do believe a Manager has a responsibility to enable performances that do not drive fans away. Irrespective of injuries or who our opponents are.

That’s perfectly fair. I don’t see it the same way, of course, and I do consider the various factors involved. However, you’re entirely entitled to disregard them if that’s how you feel. That’s all part of being a supporter.

12 hours ago, dennyc said:

Out of curiosity, what did you think of the performance in Edinburgh, particularly that first half? Or at those other two games. Because you knew what to expect, did the performance not really matter?

Performance always matters. I’ve never been one to think otherwise because it does. That said, I’d much rather we grind out a scrappy 1-0 win than lose a thrilling match 4-3, as I’ve mentioned before.

As for the Hibs game, I saw a team that looked like it had reached the end of a gruelling run of fixtures and was running on fumes.

We looked like a side without our usual goalkeeper, who had done well since coming in this season, and instead had to rely on a 23-year-old replacement. This lad had only just arrived at the club the day before and, as far as I can tell, hadn’t played a senior match all season.

We looked like a side whose captain, returning from three months out, made his first start only to come off injured after 30 minutes.

We looked like a team missing our best player – one of the brightest young midfield talents in the country right now.

We looked like a side without our new first-choice striker, who had started to find form before his injury.

We looked like a team coming to rely on three young players over the recent busy period – Wilson, Maswanhise, and Kaleta – two of whom are 20, while the other is 22. These kids spent last season playing a mix of under-21 and Scottish League One football, and are now effectively in their first full season of serious senior-level competition.

In short, we looked like a team that’s been through the wringer. If you’d asked me to outline a worst-case scenario before we faced Celtic away on Boxing Day, I’d have probably said something like losing Stama and Lennon to injury, losing both our first-choice and back-up keepers for various reasons, and seeing Paul McGinn return from injury only to get sidelined again.

If you’d told me we’d have to cope with all of that during a packed schedule, then go on to lose to Celtic, draw with Rangers, lose away to Hearts, beat Aberdeen at home, draw away to Kilmarnock, and lose away to Hibs, I’d have said that sounds about right.

Ultimately, though, people will think what they want to think. It’s clear we’re not going to see eye-to-eye on this, so there’s no point endlessly rehashing it. What I’ve outlined here reflects how I view this recent run of games. I’ve tried to focus on the facts rather than speculate or second-guess the manager and coaching staff. They’re in their roles for a reason, while you and I are here as fans, paying to watch them do their job.

Let’s see how things unfold over the coming weeks. Hopefully, we’ll see a bit of relief on the injury front and pick up some results along the way. With the squad as it stands, I’m not expecting a winning streak any time soon. It’s going to be tough, but with a bit of luck, we can nick a result in the cup and keep ourselves in the conversation for a top-six finish.

[wellfan]

2 hours ago, David said:

I didn’t single out those clubs – you did. I simply responded. And, frankly, you’ve completely disregarded my points about the quality of players. How many of our players would walk straight into the Hibs or Hearts squads? And how many of theirs would make it into ours? Yes, those teams may not be performing cohesively at the moment (although Hibs are unbeaten in their last five matches and Hearts have only lost one in the same stretch, so it could be argued they’re starting to find their rhythm). Still, they’re clearly not playing to the standard expected, given the calibre of their squads. That, more than anything, likely comes down to coaching and management. Meanwhile, you could argue that we’re exceeding expectations by comparison, which is also a credit to our coaching and management.

When it comes to budget, club stature, and player quality, the top six in Scotland this season should, in most cases, include Rangers, Celtic, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hearts, and Hibs in some order.

As for our current form, some might say we’re on a poor run. I wouldn’t go that far, but I can see why others might feel that way. However, as with most things, context is key. Everyone knew that facing six matches in sixteen days – essentially a game every 3.2 days – would severely test the depth of our squad. We’re simply not the sort of club with the resources to field a squad capable of handling such a gruelling schedule without consequences.

On top of that, let’s not forget who we were up against during that period: Celtic away, Rangers at home three days later, Hearts away, Aberdeen at home, Kilmarnock on that dreadful plastic pitch, and Hibs away. And that doesn’t even account for the fact we lost some of our most important players during that time – our best player, our goalkeeper, our new striker, and our captain were all sidelined by injuries.

When I look back on that spell, I think taking a point against Rangers, three against Aberdeen, and another point at Kilmarnock is a respectable return.

Before that difficult run, we’d had two poor results against Hibs and Dundee, which weren’t good enough. But following that, we took seven points from three games – a win at St Mirren, a victory over Dundee United at home, and a point against Kilmarnock.

Now that the intense stretch of fixtures is behind us, we’ve had a week to rest and reset, and we’re ready to go again on Saturday.

Could those factors be at play? Possibly. But just as you might argue they could be, I can equally argue they might not. That’s precisely why I prefer to focus on certainties whenever possible. Those factors you mention might have influenced things, but the reality is we face opponents with differing styles, on various pitches, in constantly changing weather conditions. Our own players are at different stages of fitness and coping with varying degrees of fatigue, all while playing a match every 3.2 days on average.

There’s no "perhaps" about what I’ve just outlined. Those are indisputable facts, and I’d rather consider them first before speculating about other factors that might have an impact.

Of course, it’s fair to look for improvement. However, to demand it without considering the factors I’ve outlined above comes across as a bit unrealistic, in my view.

That said, if you believe that a club with our budget – and, as a result, the squad depth and quality that come with it – should be performing at 100% while playing a match every 3.2 days over a period of more than two weeks, all while delivering entertaining football, missing some of our key players, and contending with some rather challenging conditions, then you’re entitled to that opinion.

We’ll revisit those figures in a few months, once the weather has improved and the fixture schedule has eased up a bit. This time of year is typically one where many people have less disposable income, so it’s no surprise the numbers might be affected. I’ll gladly take a closer look at the attendance stats down the line.

That’s perfectly fair. I don’t see it the same way, of course, and I do consider the various factors involved. However, you’re entirely entitled to disregard them if that’s how you feel. That’s all part of being a supporter.

Performance always matters. I’ve never been one to think otherwise because it does. That said, I’d much rather we grind out a scrappy 1-0 win than lose a thrilling match 4-3, as I’ve mentioned before.

As for the Hibs game, I saw a team that looked like it had reached the end of a gruelling run of fixtures and was running on fumes.

We looked like a side without our usual goalkeeper, who had done well since coming in this season, and instead had to rely on a 23-year-old replacement. This lad had only just arrived at the club the day before and, as far as I can tell, hadn’t played a senior match all season.

We looked like a side whose captain, returning from three months out, made his first start only to come off injured after 30 minutes.

We looked like a team missing our best player – one of the brightest young midfield talents in the country right now.

We looked like a side without our new first-choice striker, who had started to find form before his injury.

We looked like a team coming to rely on three young players over the recent busy period – Wilson, Maswanhise, and Kaleta – two of whom are 20, while the other is 22. These kids spent last season playing a mix of under-21 and Scottish League One football, and are now effectively in their first full season of serious senior-level competition.

In short, we looked like a team that’s been through the wringer. If you’d asked me to outline a worst-case scenario before we faced Celtic away on Boxing Day, I’d have probably said something like losing Stama and Lennon to injury, losing both our first-choice and back-up keepers for various reasons, and seeing Paul McGinn return from injury only to get sidelined again.

If you’d told me we’d have to cope with all of that during a packed schedule, then go on to lose to Celtic, draw with Rangers, lose away to Hearts, beat Aberdeen at home, draw away to Kilmarnock, and lose away to Hibs, I’d have said that sounds about right.

Ultimately, though, people will think what they want to think. It’s clear we’re not going to see eye-to-eye on this, so there’s no point endlessly rehashing it. What I’ve outlined here reflects how I view this recent run of games. I’ve tried to focus on the facts rather than speculate or second-guess the manager and coaching staff. They’re in their roles for a reason, while you and I are here as fans, paying to watch them do their job.

Let’s see how things unfold over the coming weeks. Hopefully, we’ll see a bit of relief on the injury front and pick up some results along the way. With the squad as it stands, I’m not expecting a winning streak any time soon. It’s going to be tough, but with a bit of luck, we can nick a result in the cup and keep ourselves in the conversation for a top-six finish.

I must commend you on the fine job you’re doing in your role as Kettlewell’s PR manager. 

[David]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

I must commend you on the fine job you’re doing in your role as Kettlewell’s PR manager. 

What I’ve said doesn’t specifically relate to Kettlewell; it could just as easily apply to any manager we’ve had who’s found themselves in similar situations. In fact, most of our recent managers have faced the very same challenges.

I believe that’s why, no matter who’s at the helm, we often see the same supporters complaining about the same issues and being critical of whoever holds the role.

[wellsince75]

9 hours ago, wellfan said:

This graphic shows that we consistently concede more goals than we score in the opening 15 mins of the first half and same again in the first 30 mins of the second half. We’re also the worst team for it in the first 15 mins of the second half.

A few more interesting patterns can be seen for us and others, but these are clearly the most concerning stats for me. They highlight that we do generally set up to be passive, at the start of both halves, and aren’t very good at it.

This approach isn’t entertaining and, based on these stats, it means we’re likely to concede more than we score by the end of the season.  

https://x.com/scotlandscoeff1/status/1878778263897538800?s=46&t=wehikD-exiutCByWu64YEQ

Really good share - thank you .

im stunned that our first half performance overall is net positive - think this shows how decent the first 12 games of the season were .

I’ve had the belief that we never shoot never mind score in the first half and only come alive in the final 15 mins- these stats disprove that . 

so to answer are we entertaining - yes until the end of our cup run - since then it’s been poor, not last season horrific but poor .

lets hope we pick up again moving into spring 
 

 

[grizzlyg]

Just my view but I think this has been covered enough now.  Let's now focus on Saturday.....any win will do as Joseph sang about his technicolour dreamcoat

[SteelmaninOZ]

33 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Just my view but I think this has been covered enough now.  Let's now focus on Saturday.....any win will do as Joseph sang about his technicolour dreamcoat

Very entertaining comment there pal🤣🤣 

[FirParkCornerExile]

On 1/11/2025 at 11:01 PM, MFCL84 said:

Are you happy with points or do you want more entertainment?

I’ll start by saying that I am satisfied with the points tally and league position at this time. Indeed, given the horrendous list of injuries experienced this season, the points tally is commendable. However, the entertainment on show is non-existent. The persistent use of an overly negative approach, combined with hit-and-hope hoofball is absolutely dreadful to watch. Unfortunately, this hasn’t been just for the past few games, but has been the case for most/all of this season. I used to look forward to going to the game on a Saturday, but now it just feels like a bad-habit that I should give up.

What really frustrates me is that I don’t think that the squad at Motherwell is any worse than most of the squads in the league, but week-in-week-out I see the opposition dominate possession, while appearing to be technically better on the ball and playing with more cohesion and purpose. I haven’t bothered to look at the possession stats, pass completion stats or number of goal attempts made; I don’t need to, because I know that to be entertained I want Motherwell to do better in all of those areas.

Maybe I’m in the minority, maybe many are being entertained with this brand of football. I most certainly am not.

Are you happy with the entertainment provided by Motherwell?

 

I hate watching Motherwell this season. Most of our games are aimless games of hoofball. Wouldn't even be so bad if we won the ball but all it does is give the ball away and keeps us on the back foot. Despite early promising signs this season we still do not have a good defence and our mind numbing style of play will always ensure we concede goals. I'm not expecting us to be world beaters but we have a bigger squad than we've had in years, we have a squad that's as good (or bad) as half the league but I seriously think we play the worst style of football. Sure the happy clappers will say we are 5th but unless we start playing a different formation /style  that will very quickly turn to "yeah but we are 6th, yeah but we are 7th, yeah but we are 8th"