El Grew Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 There has been much criticism aimed at the club, chairman, manager, players etc. this season, and I hold up my hands as one who has added his voice to this on occasions. Having been a supporter for more years than I care to admit, through thick and thin (more the latter than the former) I began asking myself, that all things considered, was I being over-critical of the club. We all obviously have a passion for MFC and want the very best for them but perhaps sometimes, we just expect too much given the limited resources available to them. A little research revealed an interesting, if perhaps already obvious fact which I use as supporting evidence. Since the Premier League came into being at the beginning of season 1975/76 (33 seasons now) the average finishing positions of the various clubs from that time up until the end of last season, have been as follows: 1. Rangers 2. Celtic 3. Aberdeen 4. Hearts 5. Dundee Utd 6. Hibs 7. Kilmarnock 8. Motherwell 9. St Mirren 10. Dundee 11. St Johnstone 12. Inverness ------------------ 13. Partick 14. Livingston 15. Dunfermline 16. Falkirk 17. Hamilton The 6 city clubs finishing 1 to 6. So, is this then the natural order of Scottish football? I suppose the only surprise for me was to discover that we were not 7th and that Kilmarnock occupied that place. Being realistic then, should we regard any finish we have in the SPL above 8th, as a successful season for us? Analysis revealed that we have only done this on 12 occasions out of 33. So I would argue that on the basis of this evidence, the answer would appear to be yes and, that if we manage to finish 7th this season then it really will have been a successful one for us and maybe we should look at things in this light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickoza Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 It's the reaction we've seen so many times after a successful season. 91-92 was the same, calls for the head of McLean as we didn't win the cup again or follow it up with a run in Europe. Even 94-95, when McLeish took McLean's side to second, there were still some dissenting voices which grew stronger when we got nowhere near the following year. We've no right to demand anything, I almost dreaded this point this time last year, I'd a feeling it'd go like this if we failed to at least equate what we did. And so it has. Anything above the drop is an achievement. Anything else is an absolute bonus. Dundee, Dunfermline, Saint Johnstone, even Partick. Similar sized clubs, all went down, all seriously struggled since. Be grateful for what we have is my philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motherwell Football Club Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 We should win every cup every season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 Being realistic then, should we regard any finish we have in the SPL above 8th, as a successful season for us? I've been saying this for a long time. That's not to say we shouldn't aim for better or celebrate finishing 8th like its a major achievement. But over all it's hardly a disaster. I've said this before but a lot of 'younger' fans of Motherwell have had an easy ride lately. In the last ten years or so we've got to numerous semi finals and a League Cup final, qualified for Europe, finished 3rd, made the Top Six or just missed out most seasons and we've produced a long line of good and in some cases brilliant young players. Contrast to back when I started supporting Motherwell we were fucking rank! We hadn't made a final in about 40 years! Never qualifed for Europe EVER! You went home happy if we scored a goal never mind all this Europe stuff! I was five seasons of regular attendance before I saw us even finish in the top half (6th from 12) and that was considered amazing! We've had a relatively 'golden' period since administration with only two troublesome seasons but I'm sure a lot of fans will remember when almost every season was a battle against relegation. I guess peoples expectations match their experience as fans. Lately, all things considered, we've had it pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I don't think anyone with half a brain expects us to be top half every season. I'm happy to stay in the league every year. I think what does rankle with me is the manner of performances that lead us to where we finish. One of my favourite seasons watching Motherwell was the season we finished bottom under Butcher. But the performances always had a bit of bite about them, we were in people's faces, and if we lost it wasn't for the lack of effort. Now I know it's hard to replicate that kind of spirit that came from being in administration, but I expect teams to have to work hard to beat us. If that happens, fair play to them. Being honest, I know where our place is in the grand scheme of things. I just want some of the doggedness of a McLean or a Butcher team. Far easier teams to love. These players are capable of it (the cup tie at Tynecastle last season). Just wish we saw it more often... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punk_in_drublic Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Averageing statistics do help generate a quick picture of what a particular set of variables spit out. But it doesnt really give any insight to why. Lower resolution data does. For example, we finnish 3rd one season, then 7th or lower another. Finnish bottom one season and then 6th another. Sometimes averages distort the magnitude of fluctuation and as a result hide the casue. For this reason, its difficult to say that we should be expecting something of a mid table finnish each season. A lot of the posters on here call it the roller coaster, mainly for the reason we are up and down like a yo-yo most season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 'Flow Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Sometimes averages distort the magnitude of fluctuation and as a result hide the casue. You took the words right out my mouth there 'Flow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggischomper Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I don't think anyone with half a brain expects us to be top half every season. That rules out Ice RInk then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real dosser Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I've been wondering for ages where the casue had been hidden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I've been wondering for ages where the casue had been hidden. I seen it yesterday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punk_in_drublic Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 What im saying is there is no point basing expectations on a 30 year averaged league position, because every single season something is different. The causes could be players, managers etc. Just take each season as it comes. For example, what casued us to finnish 10th in 2006 - 2007? Malpas? Would we have been complaining if we finnished 7th then? We are 7th so far this season, thats better than our placement in 2006 - 2007, 2001 - 2002, 2002 - 2003, 2005 - 2006, 1995 - 1996, 1996 - 1997, 1997 - 1998 i.e 7 times out of the last 15 years, so approximately 50% of that period, so we have been in worse scenarios during 50% of the last 15 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faddyisgod Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I don't think anyone with half a brain expects us to be top half every season. I'm happy to stay in the league every year. I think what does rankle with me is the manner of performances that lead us to where we finish. One of my favourite seasons watching Motherwell was the season we finished bottom under Butcher. But the performances always had a bit of bite about them, we were in people's faces, and if we lost it wasn't for the lack of effort. Now I know it's hard to replicate that kind of spirit that came from being in administration, but I expect teams to have to work hard to beat us. If that happens, fair play to them. Being honest, I know where our place is in the grand scheme of things. I just want some of the doggedness of a McLean or a Butcher team. Far easier teams to love. These players are capable of it (the cup tie at Tynecastle last season). Just wish we saw it more often... I think this is the best post I've ever read on here. Agree 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Stall Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I think this is the best post I've ever read on here. Agree 100% I don't. I would much rather watch us go out playing silky football and coasting to third in the league than watch us roll our sleeves up and only be saved from relegation on a technicality. Given the choice of watching Arsenal or Bolton every week, there is no choice, both in terms of style and panache on the pitch and results! *But I do understand that sometimes it looks as though our mob can't be arsed. I just dont ever get any Butcher hero worship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faddyisgod Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I don't. I would much rather watch us go out playing silky football and coasting to third in the league than watch us roll our sleeves up and only be saved from relegation on a technicality. Given the choice of watching Arsenal or Bolton every week, there is no choice, both in terms of style and panache on the pitch and results! *But I do understand that sometimes it looks as though our mob can't be arsed. I just dont ever get any Butcher hero worship. Thats not what the original post was about though. It was about the commitment of the players leading to where we finish. Because I think most people would agree that if Motherwell's players gave 100% commitment and effort every game then with their natural superior ability to most teams then they would win a lot more than they lose or draw. Defeats to teams like Falkirk, St Mirren and Hamilton due to lack of effort is unacceptable in my opinion - and no-one here can deny that there have been a few of those performances this season. I would much rather see us play fantastic football and smash teams to bits every week but that just isnt going to happen. So the commitment has to be there every game then we can build from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ML1 Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Thats not what the original post was about though. It was about the commitment of the players leading to where we finish. Because I think most people would agree that if Motherwell's players gave 100% commitment and effort every game then with their natural superior ability to most teams then they would win a lot more than they lose or draw. Defeats to teams like Falkirk, St Mirren and Hamilton due to lack of effort is unacceptable in my opinion - and no-one here can deny that there have been a few of those performances this season. I would much rather see us play fantastic football and smash teams to bits every week but that just isnt going to happen. So the commitment has to be there every game then we can build from there. Have you seen our games against the three you name this season ? I think you are doing the three of them a disservice if you think it's been a lack of effort in the games we've dropped points to them. Last season we maybe had superior ability havent seen much if any evidence of that this season though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Given the choice of watching Arsenal or Bolton every week, there is no choice, both in terms of style and panache on the pitch and results! As would I, big man, but don't kid yourself that Arsenal don't win the battle before they start playing football. The most successful of Wenger's team's had Patrick Viera in it. Shrinking violet, he was not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yir Elder Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Any time we make it into the top six it should be regarded as a great achievement. The city clubs have the financial advantage over the rest of us and should always be up there. We're not a big enough club to demand or expect top half finishes, European jaunts or trips to Hampden on a regular basis, which makes them all the better when they happen. This season has been disappointing, but only in comparison to last season. Given the financial disparity and the poor run we had in November/December, to get within a point of Hibs was pretty good. The close season will be huge for us though, in terms of players in and out. We need to at least keep the same numbers in the squad, and maybe even add an extra body, just to keep us competitive. We can't afford to be bringing in too many loans and looking at trialists right up to the start of the season, we have to hit the ground running this time. However, if we are challenging for the top six and enjoy at least one cup run then that'll do me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 One of my favourite seasons watching Motherwell was the season we finished bottom under Butcher. But the performances always had a bit of bite about them, we were in people's faces, and if we lost it wasn't for the lack of effort. . People have selective memories about that season. We put in some great performances sure enough, but by the second half of the season the team had just about given up the ghost. I remember a Sunday afternoon match at Firhill against Partick that is probably the worst Motherwell performance I've ever seen.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Thing is you can't lose as many games as we did that season without turning in some gash performances but overall folks memories of that season were of a young team giving their all but unfortunately coming up short. I can't remember walking out of a home game feeling they hadn't tried their hardest. IIRC two games at Firhill were as bad as anything I've seen but that's been forgotten because of the effort and subsequent sense of feeling hard done by on many more occasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 That team and the manner they played got me back into supporting the team on a regular basis after a few seasons of real indifference. They had some stinkers yes. But they also had many games where they should have taken at least a point for their efforts and were really unfortunate. If we could marry some of that determination and bottle with the ability we have now - we'd easily have been Top 6 this season. That's not an expectaion on my part - i'm happy that we're safe - but its a simple fact. We have the ability in spades and went on a good run yet on many occasions we've been unable to develop the mean streak / killer instinct required. Like I said before we went out in a few games most notably Killie away, Abredeen and St. Mirren at home and surrendered the points too easily - The Setanta Killie game probably being the most 'unspirited' display of the McGhee reign (well mibbez a couple of cup exits were worse). Even at Ibrox recently we had the ability to get back into the game and do something - but at the end of the day we made them look good by giving them absolute acres to play in. That young post administration side might have eventually succumbed but Rangers would have known they were in a game. They were a great side that gave me back 'the bug' every single one of those lads deserve the utmost credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 As would I, big man, but don't kid yourself that Arsenal don't win the battle before they start playing football. The most successful of Wenger's team's had Patrick Viera in it. Shrinking violet, he was not... Every team needs that wee bit of grit in midfield. You cant name a successful club that didn't have a so-called hardman at it's heart. Bertie Auld did it for Celtic, Paddy Crerand for Man United, Tommy Smith and then Graeme Souness for Liverpool, Bobby Collins, Norman Hunter, Johnny Giles, and Billy Bremner at Leeds, Revie wasn't taking any chances there was he? Even when we had a footballing side with the likes of Pettigrew, Graham, Davidson, and Marinello, we also had Peter Millar and Stuart McLaren. Jock Wallace's Rangers had Alex McDonald, Roy Aitken and Murdo McLeod did a similar job for Billy McNeill's Celtic. Psycho was Tommy McLean's enforcer. Fancy Dan's win sod all, they need a bit of bite in their side to carry it through the tough times. Does anyone doubt Arsenal would have put up a better showing tonight with a Vieria in their midfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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