fatcalf Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Anyway enough from me on this issue, been round in circles on this one before. Would seem I value human live, including those of the soldiers your supposedly defending, more than you do. To not reason makes us and them less than human that's a fine attitude. And as to do or die, yeah you really value their lives a whole lot. Ahem Round and round and round we go, where it stops nobody knows. Willy Wonka was it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numpty Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Their's is not to reason why, Their's is but to do or die. Close, but no cigar: "Forward, the Light Brigade!" Was there a man dismay'd? Not tho' the soldier knew Someone had blunder'd: Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do and die: Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 What happened to those soldiers? Most of them disappeared into civilian life. Some moved to Holland, France, USA etc... Please enlighten me... Clearly not every rank and file member, point is saying "well they don't decide," is a very poor excuse to justify what you can be ordered to do. Some moved to Argentina?South America to escape war crimes tribunals, and if you were a rocket scientist then almost anything could be overlooked and a nice job did indeed await in the USA anyway as has been pointed out already round and round we go. Don't like what I've said get over it. Continue deluding yourself that soldiers are highly moral poor souls that get a raw deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellfan1984 Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Clearly not every rank and file member, point is saying "well they don't decide," is a very poor excuse to justify what you can be ordered to do. Some moved to Argentina?South America to escape war crimes tribunals, and if you were a rocket scientist then almost anything could be overlooked and a nice job did indeed await in the USA anyway as has been pointed out already round and round we go. Don't like what I've said get over it. Continue deluding yourself that soldiers are highly moral poor souls that get a raw deal. So you change your argument because the Rank and File - who could say "I was only following orders" did say that and went back to civilian life (some actually remained in military in west) - so it is an excuse and has been for a very long time. I don't think they should have got season tickets, nor did I think they should have been given free entry in the last thread - but they have and I'm happy to say well done Motherwell on an excellent PR job. Also, someone also mentioned they are well paid - not as well paid as their bosses who are getting bonuses higher than the yearly wage of a front line soldier - nor do I hear anyone moaning about the amount of free tickets that are given to sponsors, media, and fat cats who are friends of those that run MFC - all of whom probably earn double what the front line soldier earns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Stall Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I think this is kind of missing the point. The grievance is that why shoudl people who choose to go into the army and get paid for their services be allowed free entry? We are not in a period of conscription! I assume you work and pay taxes therefore putting something back into the country and sate...these people put something back into the sate in other means yes but chose that path in life...why are you not screaming for a free seat? Because I have a comfy lifestyle which includes living and working 15 miles from the stadium so can get to most home games hence why I have a season ticket. I don't get shot at for a living nor go off to fight in wars that I probably don't believe in. These guys are brave, they do a job that a lot of people wouldn't and probably couldn't do. At the moment they probably won't be available to get full use of any season tickets anyway due to tours of duty, postings and whatever the forces word for shift work is. So I see no reason why 30 season books shouldn't be available for general forces use. Its a general thankyou for the work they do. Work which appears at times from reading this board and other sources, to be under appreciated. Anyway, its only 30 tickets, its not worth getting your knickers in a twist because you don't get in free. If the club was to make 30 tickets available to the job centre to pass out, or the emergency services, I wouldn't have any problem with that either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Stall Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Continue deluding yourself that soldiers are highly moral poor souls that get a raw deal. Who's suggested that soldiers are highly moral poor souls?? They are trained killing machines! They don't get to choose which wars they have to fight in, I believe is the point the poster was making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I We are not in a period of conscription! Aye and that is because these people signed up. If nobody signe up to the services then we probably would have conscription. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Aye, and if no one wanted to be police we'd have mob rule. Pish argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trucks Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I'm sure this has been covered, but the emergency services employees must be right chuffed. And I'm utterly shocked that a bunch of people, either not intelligent enough to do anything after school or given a choice between prison and service (with the odd exception), were singing sectarian chants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 So you change your argument because the Rank and File - who could say "I was only following orders" did say that and went back to civilian life (some actually remained in military in west) - so it is an excuse and has been for a very long time. I don't think they should have got season tickets, nor did I think they should have been given free entry in the last thread - but they have and I'm happy to say well done Motherwell on an excellent PR job. Also, someone also mentioned they are well paid - not as well paid as their bosses who are getting bonuses higher than the yearly wage of a front line soldier - nor do I hear anyone moaning about the amount of free tickets that are given to sponsors, media, and fat cats who are friends of those that run MFC - all of whom probably earn double what the front line soldier earns. Not changing my argument no, whether I chose the best analagy is debateable, but regardless of the right or wrongs do you think the Allied forces could seriously hold to account every member of the German/Axis forces? And it is my opinion that only following orders is a piss poor excuse, an abdication of ones own free will. That we accept that is very poor anf world would be a better place if people took more responsibility and didn't serve in spurious military campaigns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Who's suggested that soldiers are highly moral poor souls?? They are trained killing machines! They don't get to choose which wars they have to fight in, I believe is the point the poster was making. Well the amount of PR bumming them up lately you'd think they were. And I can only repeat myself here, they can choose not to join in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscot Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Great gesture by MFC ,will shellick be next ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bop Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Political deflection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finlay Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 No issues with this at all. Good PR and gesture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscot Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Political deflection. Politics and football ? Inform us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Stall Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Well the amount of PR bumming them up lately you'd think they were. So really, since no one said anything about them being morally superior poor wee souls, you are just constructing straw men to suit your arguament. Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Horrible initiative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Well the amount of PR bumming them up lately you'd think they were. And I can only repeat myself here, they can choose not to join in the first place. You still here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosser1886 Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Well done to MFC, its only a few tickets (christ we have enough empty seats at every game), an excellent gesture. Yes I know that it is there choice, but there aren't many jobs around where you get paid a crap wage and have the chance of not making it back home alive or in one piece and are away from there nearest and dearest for months / years on end. Good on them they have my full and unreserved support, and good on the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper_no1 Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I am not going to bother with my tuppence worth on the rights or wrongs of what these people do in their job,their rate of pay or their job description. What i will say,is that like it or not these people are away doing a job in a foreign land away from their loved ones.Yes they knew what they were signing up for,of course they did - but they did it,someone had to. At the end of the day it is their job,and part of their job is the follow the wishes of those in charge,either in command of the army or the government. Since we as a people vite for that government,then their job is to follow OUR wishes as a general voting public.Perhaps if so many people were against the war they wouldn't all vote like sheep for the parties supporting war,but since they do - then they are ultimatly responsible for the legalities of the war,noone else. And Malky79, your views on people 'following orders' are coming across as rather nieve, soldiers do follow orders without question,because it is their job - and they are trained and told to do so. I may not agree with everything that my boss says,but i go along with it because i have to respect their judgment. Since their job involves the task of firing bullets,then orders to kill or maim are orders they must follow,like it or not. If not they cannot just up sticks and walk out like me and you. Another thing you might find is that right now,with the hopless state of our economy a lot more people are joining the army not because of a real will or want,but because it's possibly the only fucking job that they can get right now.....that's the real shame of our society. Instead of getting all worked up over a PRIVATE company letting people in for free why not concern ourselves with some greater issues in society. If john boyle decides to hand out thirty season tickets to guys he knows down the local boozer then that is his choice,at the end of the day it is HIS money at the end of the day and he can let in whoever the hell he likes for free. Some people on here are greeting as if it was money our their own pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 So really, since no one said anything about them being morally superior poor wee souls, you are just constructing straw men to suit your arguament. Cool. Not really my contention is that it is immoral or at best amoral to serve in the military and likes of yourself disagree and defend their choices as morally sound and that they are rightous upstanding fine citiziens doing a brave and dangerous duty to defend the nation. Or if yourself hasn't described them exactly thus then others have. There is a general deification in this country of 'our brave boys' which I think is a heap of shit. So not a straw man as such, I am maybe dealing in slight generalisations but you are looking pedantry in your replies. End of the day we see it very differently and might be better left at that, feel free to clutter up my PM inbox if you want to discuss it further. I have promised fatcalf after all not to further clutter up the thread with circular discussions and I fear he might wear out his keyboard tapping in those sarcastic smiley icons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I am not going to bother with my tuppence worth on the rights or wrongs of what these people do in their job,their rate of pay or their job description. What i will say,is that like it or not these people are away doing a job in a foreign land away from their loved ones.Yes they knew what they were signing up for,of course they did - but they did it,someone had to. At the end of the day it is their job,and part of their job is the follow the wishes of those in charge,either in command of the army or the government. Since we as a people vite for that government,then their job is to follow OUR wishes as a general voting public.Perhaps if so many people were against the war they wouldn't all vote like sheep for the parties supporting war,but since they do - then they are ultimatly responsible for the legalities of the war,noone else. And Malky79, your views on people 'following orders' are coming across as rather nieve, soldiers do follow orders without question,because it is their job - and they are trained and told to do so. I may not agree with everything that my boss says,but i go along with it because i have to respect their judgment. Since their job involves the task of firing bullets,then orders to kill or maim are orders they must follow,like it or not. If not they cannot just up sticks and walk out like me and you. Another thing you might find is that right now,with the hopless state of our economy a lot more people are joining the army not because of a real will or want,but because it's possibly the only fucking job that they can get right now.....that's the real shame of our society. Instead of getting all worked up over a PRIVATE company letting people in for free why not concern ourselves with some greater issues in society. If john boyle decides to hand out thirty season tickets to guys he knows down the local boozer then that is his choice,at the end of the day it is HIS money at the end of the day and he can let in whoever the hell he likes for free. Some people on here are greeting as if it was money our their own pocket. No one has to. I'd love to see the day when the government shits itself as they haven't recuited anyone in months. Wonder what they'd do then. Anyone reminded them they follow our wishes lately, rarely seems like it? Final highlighted point I certainly agree and I certainly sympathetic to that a lot more than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 You still here? Who me? Err for the moment yes. Have I got news for you is on in a few minutes though so that might be my contribution for the evening.* *Yeah I'll probably have another nosey before I go to bed, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modernist Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Hope the Soldiers enjoy the first game of their 'Free' season tickets tomorrow. The club could always recoup the cost by taking away 'Student Discounts' Workshy bassas...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Who me? Err for the moment yes. Have I got news for you is on in a few minutes though so that might be my contribution for the evening.* *Yeah I'll probably have another nosey before I go to bed, sorry. Nothing to see, move along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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