Augh! Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 There was no Illegal war against Iraq! Show me anywhere it that "Independent" report that we were at war with the people of Iraq, or indeed Iraq! Nobody is denying that the government got it wrong regarding intelligence reports nor the fact that they followed the Americans into Iraq along with several other United Nations countries but we never ever declared war on Iraq or its peoples , the only war declared was on terror! Sadly a few Iraqis died whilst the bombing and shelling took place and this is deeply regrettable but the objective was set and achieved, the removal of Saddam Hussein, his corrupt government and police force. A new democracy was put in place, a new Police force was trained up and a new infrastructure set, all whilst the terrorist insurgents set about bombing the innocent Iraqis and our forces, as well as them having to deal with the muslim factions all fighting each other to gain control. To this effect, our troops did excellently. Anyway I wouldn't really put any faith into what the " Independent" report or the Guardian for that matter. Legality of a war is hard to ascertain. The inquiry going on just now is more about whether or not the government lied to parliament about the case for war, but even if it found the government had lied then that in itself would not make it an illegal war. What could would be if it were to be established that the governments of the aggressor nations (this inquiry granted will only be looking at the UK) did not do enough before the invasion to protect civilians in Iraq. This would contravene the Geneva Convention and in terms of what little actually makes up international law, this could make the invasion of Iraq "illegal." Even then it could take action by the ICJ to actually say if anyone in the UK government acted illegally. This is besides the point however. On the matter of whether or not the club should let in members of the armed forces in for free, give them season tickets, or some other offer I've sort of changed my position. Originally I was against this because although they do a difficult job so do plenty of other people and the ticket pricing structure of a football club shouldn't be based on how valuable someone thinks the fans job happens to be. Should prices be lowered for those in the Army, nurses and firemen but put up for bankers, civil servants and sociology students? These people are members of our society just as much as everyone else, so why should they get special treatment. It was a view I held and I can respect anyone who does hold this view now. But we do offers for school children (or I think we do, I don't pay as much attention to these things as I did when I was at school ), we run a work programme for people coming out of prisons, the club get involved in various things in the town - everytime I skim that Extra paper there always seems to be a couple of Motherwell players pictured alongside some local group doing whatever, they let OAPs and tax-dodgers students like me in for less. Giving something such as concessions or some free season tickets to people in the army or who have been in the army isn't special treatment, it's parity. Whatever you think of the wars, the country as a whole will have to rethink how they perceive war veterans as a result of them. Before they were old people who had fought during a time of total war which for many young people like me was decades before my birth and honestly quite distant as a result. Now though we have large numbers of people who have been left scarred for life as a result of war who are in their twenties and their teens. The debate over these wars, which I was and am against, will have long passed and we as a society will have large numbers of people who will always live with the result of it, and its something we have to get used to. Like one of the posters above said however, there has to be a line draw between respect and veneration of soldiers. The Sun newspaper in particular seems to attack people it is against for political reasons as being against "our boys". Doing so is itself disrespectful because it is the Sun newspapers politicising these people. They have established a situation where anyone who is against these wars, or any future wars as being against 'our troops', and it deadens the debate which has to exist as people don't want to be attacked for this. I don't mind if people didn't want to applaud at half time there on Saturday, in fact I think that it is healthy for there to be those who have their political opinions which stopped them from doing so. It would be wrong for anyone to try and pressure them into following the crowd and to clap when they didn't want to because these are "our boys." TLDR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 The facts can be used to show a lot, there was no war declared against Iraq or it's regime but the minority still insist it was a war! WMD ... just because they haven't found the warheads doesn't mean they don't exist, they found the delivery methods and already know the Saddam has used chemical warfare on the Kurdish people of North Iraq again the only war declared was on terror I'm thinking of declaring a war on obtuseness and occupying your house, I suspect I have as much chance of finding WMD in there as were found in Iraq when no one went to war there! * *Just to add that like earlier on any attempts at humour were made at the expense of the poster and not any war dead as I'd hope was patently obvious.** **A different poster refering to in that wee postscript DDman I don't want you to think that was part was a dig at yourself. Good night all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deaddogman Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 ok I don't really care what the minority shout about, the bottom line is that Our troops were sent into Iraq to do a job, they did it and now they have left . I supported them then and I support them now and applaud them. I observed the silences on remembrance Sunday and on the 11th. and have done regularly since 1964 I am closer to the end of my life than most of you are from the beginning of yours but in my time I have seen military service in Belize, through the Falklands war and The Kuwait conflict I just hope that our troops are not required to come and defend you, at any time ,you'll probably turn your back on them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Irish Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Once freedom of speech goes we are in a very sorry position, so while I applauded yesterday and respect the tough conditions many soldiers find themselves in, its actually completely necessary to debate and oppose the veneration of the army, if we don't then we slip further down the slope towards authoritarian government. Preserving free speech and allowing rival opinions, even extreme ones, does more to maintain the survival of our freedom than any army - without it the military quickly become oppressors rather than protectors. This for me is one of the most important points made on here. Motherwell fans should be proud there is an actual debate on this matter. A debate like this would simply not be possible on the football messageboards of many English clubs, anyone arguing against special treatment for servicemen would be simply shouted down, abused and threatened. For me, the issue about this current media bandwagon of "heroes" that is undepinning a lot of this positive discrimination for servicemen stuff is that you cannot morally seperate the personal courage displayed in individual situations by our servicemen and the concrete effect of their actions. The actions of our servicemen in the Middle East has been little short of disastrous for the peoples of the Middle East, untold deaths, suffering, collapsed infrastructure, political chaos. And it's been disastrous for our security here too, creating numerous enemies for us across the globe. This isn't "heroism". It's misguided, naive blundering - and that's using the kindest possible words for the actions of our servicemen. It's simply wrong that when we have so many sections of our society carrying out socially beneficial dangerous work like firemen and police officers that they get ignored yet a group of workers who have been used as blunt tools by a lying and manipulative establishment get a pat on the back by football clubs. Some might argue, calm down, it's harmless, a bit of happy-clappy publicity for communities. But I would question how much this propaganda about "heroes" is being used to bolster support for our continuing disastrous occupation of foreign countries. The WMD argument failed, the biggest electoral fraud in history by the Afghan president our troops are helping to prop up, well, that's another pretty embarrassing one - so what's left for the government to churn out, ah yes, some sentimentalised mush about squaddie and his hardships. Yeah, they'll buy that and the entire warmongering show can be kept on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Good post London_Irish. There are far more deserving people in society than soldiers of schemes such as this. However not just the most commonly cited one's like police officers and firemen, but also the more hidden, less championed people such as carers. I'd also argue that people who are running youth clubs for disadvantaged/disabled kids (largley out of their own pocket) would be more deserving of initiatives such as this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 The Left wing really do have their claws in deep on here don't they? Left wing extremists are still extremists mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman1991 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 The Left wing really do have their claws in deep on here don't they? Left wing extremists are still extremists mind. Don't tell me we're back on about Jim O'Brien again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Don't tell me we're back on about Jim O'Brien again He's really quite pish int'he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman1991 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Wouldn't go that far, but he is extreme!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellfan1984 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 But I would question how much this propaganda about "heroes" is being used to bolster support for our continuing disastrous occupation of foreign countries. The WMD argument failed, the biggest electoral fraud in history by the Afghan president our troops are helping to prop up, well, that's another pretty embarrassing one - so what's left for the government to churn out, ah yes, some sentimentalised mush about squaddie and his hardships. Yeah, they'll buy that and the entire warmongering show can be kept on the road. Continous? WTF? Afghanistan is the only "disastrous" one - so one out of 25 Nations where our armed forces are based = continous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnstone Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Good post London_Irish. There are far more deserving people in society than soldiers of schemes such as this. However not just the most commonly cited one's like police officers and firemen, but also the more hidden, less championed people such as carers. I'd also argue that people who are running youth clubs for disadvantaged/disabled kids (largley out of their own pocket) would be more deserving of initiatives such as this. Yeah but helping disabled kids doesn't mean you might be shot by a sniper or blown up does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Continous? WTF? Afghanistan is the only "disastrous" one - so one out of 25 Nations where our armed forces are based = continous Ok so Iraq should be past tense but it and Afghanistan have been disastrious but of the rest of the places you are referring to there is a difference being based somewhere and occupying it in the manner of those two high profile cases. Although Diego Garica is an interesting one, given we forcibly removed the population to allow the US to use the Islands as a jointly run military base. We'd have to ask the populations of the rest of these places if they are pleased or concerned by the presence of our troops I daresay different places would give different responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazzie Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Anyway enough from me on this issue, been round in circles on this one before.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welldel Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Personally, I don’t agree with our troops being in Afghanistan and I didn’t agree with them being in Iraq, however those members of the armed forces who will hopefully benefit from this scheme are not responsible for Government policy. They are merely doing the job they have been asked or rather ordered to do. They are doing so in extremely difficult circumstances which have seen many killed or injured. The politicians deserve to be challenged and questioned regarding our involvement in these conflicts, the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen deserve our support and respect. Something sadly lacking here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocelot Groomin' Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Did we not let in the flute band guys for nothing? They dress like soldiers (allbeit rather camp 18th Century ones) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Tried that already, he disnae listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ankles Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Personally, I don't agree with our troops being in Afghanistan and I didn't agree with them being in Iraq, however those members of the armed forces who will hopefully benefit from this scheme are not responsible for Government policy. They are merely doing the job they have been asked or rather ordered to do. They are doing so in extremely difficult circumstances which have seen many killed or injured. The politicians deserve to be challenged and questioned regarding our involvement in these conflicts, the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen deserve our support and respect. Something sadly lacking here. Well said my man.All this bickering about who is more deserving of a ticket,this one ,that one is as bad as the pre Nancy ticket allocation debate. we could all put someone forward who we thought should be more deserving but the fact is these are fellow well fans who are facing difficult times so if they get a free ticket, so what, get over it! Well Done to the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well Well Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Personally, I don't agree with our troops being in Afghanistan and I didn't agree with them being in Iraq, however those members of the armed forces who will hopefully benefit from this scheme are not responsible for Government policy. They are merely doing the job they have been asked or rather ordered to do. They are doing so in extremely difficult circumstances which have seen many killed or injured. The politicians deserve to be challenged and questioned regarding our involvement in these conflicts, the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen deserve our support and respect. Something sadly lacking here. Without doubt the best post in this whole sorry debate. +1. Those guys and gals did not ask to go in ther and die in their hundreds, but they go in and do their jobs to the best of their abilities. I have known a number of guys in the forces and not one of them agree with our political masters and neither do I but they get on with it. The only people not doing their job is the sorry excuse for voters out there that blindly vote for these clowns every 4-5 years and then complain about their policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fi2810 Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Yeah but helping disabled kids doesn't mean you might be shot by a sniper or blown up does it? Yeah but they know that when they sign up to the army. A point too is that the most deserving cases eg firemen, charity workers, nurses, carers, youth club organisers don't see themselves as heroes and would be embarassed by being publicly hailed as such. They see it as what they do, end of story. And they would see the end result of what they do as the reward for their efforts. They are the ones that really deserve the free season tickets. People who help disabled kids are happy to see the quality of the kids' lives made better. And if they are doing the work in some other countries, yes there is a chance they might get shot at or encounter landmines or have some other s*** happen to them. And they don't get paid for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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