The Stadium

[Steve Diggle]

Thing is though, if your maximum capacity is 7-8000 as you're suggesting, you're not giving us a chance for you to be wrong because even if you are theres nothing we can do about it because theres no more room and we've shot ourselves in the foot by being overly cautious.

 

Thanks Al - that's the point for me.

 

if you build a 6K stadium yer goosed on the odd occasion you get an OF game NOT on the telly or a Nancy home leg for instance.

[David]

Thing is though, if your maximum capacity is 7-8000 as you're suggesting, you're not giving us a chance for you to be wrong because even if you are theres nothing we can do about it because theres no more room and we've shot ourselves in the foot by being overly cautious.

I don't think the odd game every few years where we score a 10,000 attendance is worth having all of those empty seats the rest of the time.

 

At present, during a time when we are actually doing quite well, we have more than half of our stadium sitting empty most home games.

 

Thats more areas that require maintenance, and it would add to the initial cost of building a new stadium.

 

Our average home attendance barely scrapes 6,000 most seasons, so even allowing for an extra 2,000 fans for a game of high interest (bearing in mind that this would account for an extra 50% of our attendances at the moment), we could easily get by on a stadium holding 8,000 or so.

 

It may do something for the atmosphere as well.

[Al B]

Thing is though, Scottish football is bottoming out....the only two paths it can take now, is change...or die.

 

If it dies, then it doesn't matter what we do as we'll die with it.

 

If the powers that be are sensible enough to take the change path however...fans WILL come back. People are dying to go to football but at the moment it's not worth it and theres no point. Give them a reason to however, and the game as a whole in this country will see a resurgence. (relative obviously....im not talking about Motherwell v Killie pulling 12,000 people).

 

As I say though...its either change or die for the game. Die, and it doesn't matter anyway, so that only leaves change. If that happens...we'd be foolish to have not speculated the possibility, and acted accordingly when we had the chance.

[David]

I don't see us getting any more than 6,000 to 8,000 if the game in this country does experience a resurgence though.

 

We simply aren't big enough to draw 10,000+ to our games on regular enough basis to make it worthwhile.

 

You have to remember that any resurgence will also see an increase in fans from the Lanarkshire area making the trip to follow the Bigot Brothers.

[LadywellToi]

Thing is though, Scottish football is bottoming out....the only two paths it can take now, is change...or die.

 

If it dies, then it doesn't matter what we do as we'll die with it.

 

If the powers that be are sensible enough to take the change path however...fans WILL come back. People are dying to go to football but at the moment it's not worth it and theres no point. Give them a reason to however, and the game as a whole in this country will see a resurgence. (relative obviously....im not talking about Motherwell v Killie pulling 12,000 people).

 

As I say though...its either change or die for the game. Die, and it doesn't matter anyway, so that only leaves change. If that happens...we'd be foolish to have not speculated the possibility, and acted accordingly when we had the chance.

 

Agree with the above point. Interested to know what you'd like to see implemented to instigate the changes?

[Al B]

I've spoken about it on a few threads recently, and went into detail in an almost business-plan style on the old welltrust site. In summary though...here's my thoughts.

 

The main problem for me is that every single club is loathe to change on an individual basis, because no-one else is. They think that for Scottish football to change, it has to be done as a whole, on a huge scale. Thats the initial mistake that everyone is making. What's needed is a complete change to the angle of approach, and realising that what would benefit us most as Motherwell Football Club, is actually if we were the only one to do it, and then use that to our advantage.

 

The main aspect causing the issues, is that the price is too high for the product you get...it's fairly simple. Scottish football as a whole see's this as a problem, but there's an opportunity for an individual club to see it not as a problem, but as an opportunity. A gap in the market if you like....

 

Any club seeing this opportunity though, then goes on to veto it because theres no guarantee that a price drop will bring their own fans back. Which is the secondary problem. Each club, when they look at initiatives...look at ways to bring their own fans back. Thats not what the gap in the market is...you're finding it, and then ignoring it. The opportunity has nothing to do with Motherwell tempting back Motherwell fans, or Killie tempting back Killie fans etc etc. The opportunity is a football club tempting back football fans. (note: im not saying converting fans to become fans of their club...im saying giving fans a reason to return to football).

 

As far as home fans are concerned, drop prices too much and you don't make enough to cover the shortfall. Don't drop prices enough, and you aren't maximizing the potential of the opportunity. There is however, a pivot point at which the amount of money you take off the entry price, is balanced out by the amount of extra customers that generates. This relates to another problem....clubs veto this because they can't see themselves being able to attract enough extra people to make it possible to make any more money. That's probably correct....but it's also the problem. Stop trying to make more money. You're not looking for change to make more money...you're looking to make change to improve things. If you're looking for the pivot point where you can make more money from cheaper prices...you'll be looking for the rest of time, and thats why it has never worked. Look for the pivot point where you make the same total money from more people, and you'll find it pretty quickly.

 

From a football point of view (figures obviously wrong just for ease of the example), its better to make £100,000 from 7000 people, than it is to make £100,000 from 4000 people. Same amount of gate money...but 3000 more people spending money within the ground over and above the entry price.

 

As I touched on earlier, even at this stage the idea would be veto'd because "it doesn't matter how much you drop the prices, it won't lift the Motherwell core support by 3000".

 

That's possibly correct. But....

 

This is where you need to think bigger, and realise something very obvious. That extra 3000 on the total gate doesn't come just from Motherwell fans. Remember the new goal that this revolves around...being the club that attracts football fans back to the game. The word Motherwell isn't even in there, and it's naive to overlook the importance of the role that visiting/away fans from other clubs can make to your own club.

 

Again figures are just to illustrate the point, but if Hibs (for example), were to announce that for the next 3 years, adult entry into Easter Road will be £15 across the board, would you go? Im pretty sure i'd be making a point of it. Everyone has cut down away games and many don't go at all now, but a fair amount of those people would be earmarking Hibs Away as a definate at the start of each season. (Look at the amount of fans we take to Tynecastle with all their pricing initiatives, compared to the amount we take 10 minutes away from that in Leith). Hell that would encourage people who don't even go to home games anymore to attend a Motherwell game, even though it's an away fixture.

 

So we adopt that approach and we corner the football fans desire to go to football to see their team (regardless of what team that is), and we pro-actively remove the reason why they currently dont. That way aside from the benefits to home fans, if you made the announcement that for the next 3 years Adult entry into Fir Park was £15, you would instantly become the away game of choice for fans of every club in the country. As soon as the fixtures were announced at the start of a season, every single SPL clubs fans would be looking at it saying "right where are the Motherwell away games...it's those, and then whatever else I can afford".

 

Hey presto, very quickly you are looking at crowds of 6/7/8 thousand on a week-to-week basis...purely because you're not trying to make more money out of it.

 

Find the pivot point. Same total profit from more individual customers. Bigger crowds (home fans and away fans), happier crowds (paying less individually), infinately better atmosphere as a result of those first two, and happier players as a result of those first three.....

 

And all because you've taken steps to actually improve things, rather than trying to make money while dressing it up under the charade of improving things. Lo-and-behold....those extra people might just spend some money in the ground as well, and you end up getting the extra green that you wanted in the first place!!

[fatcalf]

Deep breath......................and relax.

Al B for President.

[DunnyMFC]

Al B for the SFA job

 

Such a brilliant idea

[fatcalf]

Al B for the SFA job

 

Such a brilliant idea

And that is why it will never be listened to.

[Al B]

Indeed.

 

I've got it all laid out as a proper business model etc somewhere using real figures, and could do a presentation on it if asked (ahem Dempster )...but no-ones bothered enough to listen. And THATS football's biggest problem.

[Juan Kerse]

So we adopt that approach and we corner the football fans desire to go to football to see their team (regardless of what team that is), and we pro-actively remove the reason why they currently dont. That way aside from the benefits to home fans, if you made the announcement that for the next 3 years Adult entry into Fir Park was £15, you would instantly become the away game of choice for fans of every club in the country. As soon as the fixtures were announced at the start of a season, every single SPL clubs fans would be looking at it saying "right where are the Motherwell away games...it's those, and then whatever else I can afford".

 

Hey presto, very quickly you are looking at crowds of 6/7/8 thousand on a week-to-week basis...purely because you're not trying to make more money out of it.

 

Find the pivot point. Same total profit from more individual customers. Bigger crowds (home fans and away fans), happier crowds (paying less individually), infinately better atmosphere as a result of those first two, and happier players as a result of those first three.....

 

Quite simply that is the answer. It amazes me that Football clubs can't get their head around what kids study in Standard Grade Economics - Price Elasticity of Demand. Demand increasing enough with price cuts that profits rise- Football clubs have it EASIER than this rule as they are only looking for profits to stay the SAME and cash in later on the benefits of having a larger match day market.

 

In terms of a Stadium move (the point of the thread) I have ALWAYS maintained that any move MUST be coupled with a reduction in prices (especially cheaper Season Tickets) as with the buzz of a move it will be the perfect chance to cast the net and get the lapsed fans back.

 

Imagine the dire sight of a brand new stadium with sub 4000 crowds.

 

Get the Season Tickets WAY down (perhaps the Bradford Scheme I keep banging on about) and match day price to £15 and as you say Al our new ground would become the away game of choice and we COULD sustain home crowds of 7000 odds. Hell even 6000 would be a huge improvement!

[Special aka]

A 6,000 seater will not attract Junior semi's, Under 21 games nor league cup semi's or facilitate a Mauld Firm visit nor a big game for MFC.

 

Way too wee imho

[Juan Kerse]

A 6,000 seater will not attract Junior semi's, Under 21 games nor league cup semi's or facilitate a Mauld Firm visit nor a big game for MFC.

 

Way too wee imho

 

 

Nah, I wasn't advocating a 6000 seater just saying that we COULD get run of the mill crowds of 6000 by slashing prices, in agreement with Al B. Most on here don't want a 10-12,000 seater as it will be ridiculous with our current crowds of 4000 which could drop further, at least at 6,000 it wouldn't be so bad.

 

I am firmly in the camp of a new stadium with a capacity of around 11,000 - 12,000 as if we were to build it even at 10,000 it couldn't attract many semis as with segregation it would drop to less than 10,000.

 

And on the subject I have found a beauty

 

 

 

 

Mode Stadion in Norway - Holds 11,200 - perfect size, compact and NOTHING like a Barr identikit but with similar capacity. I like how it has two tiers and corners (essential to make it different from the idenitkits) but the two tiers are close together and it has corner seating only in the upper tiers - vastly reducing costs imo). I think two tiered stadiums get pricey when they are essentially two structures - one overhanging the other, with their own internal concourses, access etc.. - this one is within our reach I reckon!

 

A beauty!!

[Psycho1991]

Craigan would be kicking the balls in to that water if we had to ever play there in Europe

[Special aka]

A beauty!!

 

Yes Molde stadium looks very decent, as do many Scandinavian recent/new builds. I'd like to think MFC will think outside the box and give us something to be proud of, something which will stand the test of time and cement MFC's future in the top flight of Scottish football long after I'm gone.

[LadywellToi]

The straight sections are very similar to Tynecastle.

 

I want the Wall, after all our local neds need a hill to roll down after downing their buckie

[Fal_Dosser]

Al B - when you talk sense, you talk sense - to emphasise the point (as if it was needed !) Swinecastle is a ground I've visited often in recent times as their pricing structure was about right (£16 (ish) and £10 for the nipper) - lunchtime today was thinking of going and checked the prices on the official site and baulked at the £22 + the nipper = pennies just too tight to justify.

 

I'll be back at FP next season, and the season after, and after, ...., but if action isn't taken to arrest the falling numbers, it could take years to put right.

 

 

MON RA DOSSERS

[Special aka]

You make a good point Mr B. There is a recession on, which football has blinkered itself from. I doubt many doting fathers could justify to themselves or their other halves spending around £40 on 2 football tickets.

 

Slightly heading off at a tangent, sorry ...... when I read of Portsmouth's "factual" plight, I actually hope they do go to the wall. Time for a major reality check in football...... a club who attract average crowds of no more than 20,000 accumulating over £120M in debt FFS. Of that £10M debt in Agent Fees These parasites and their overpaid nestlings are bleeding the game dry

[Jym Bob]

Moulde Stadium looks ideal for our purposes - and could`nt agree more with Al B `s proposals.

 

Back in Dec Hearts had the initiative of reducing prices for advanced tickets sales and I made up my mind to travel to Tynecastle (along with a very healthy `Well Support)

Unfortunately the deal was`nt offered for this week-end (I suppose the marketing people thought there was no need ie not between Christmas / New Year but a decisive "six pointer")

 

Although my heart was at Tyncastle, I could`nt justify the extra cash for a capital visit.

 

But how many extra fans would we have taken if reduced prices had been on offer.

 

Mr.Boyle - please take note.

[Al B]

Read a bit about that Molde Stadium.

 

It cost 25 million, and was financed, built and given to the club and the city as a gift by 2 of Norway's richest men as it's their hometown. When it was first built the lower tier behind each goal was left as terracing, but has since been filled with seating.

[Fal_Dosser]

Read a bit about that Molde Stadium.

 

It cost 25 million, and was financed, built and given to the club and the city as a gift by 2 of Norway's richest men as it's their hometown. When it was first built the lower tier behind each goal was left as terracing, but has since been filled with seating.

Ah well, it was a nice thought

 

 

MON RA DOSSERS

[David]

Has there actually been any official word on us moving ground in the near future?

[fatcalf]

Has there actually been any official word on us moving ground in the near future?

 

No but it's good to talk bollocks on the subject.

[Wellfan1984]

Read a bit about that Molde Stadium.

 

It cost 25 million, and was financed, built and given to the club and the city as a gift by 2 of Norway's richest men as it's their hometown. When it was first built the lower tier behind each goal was left as terracing, but has since been filled with seating.

 

So basically it's up to MFC to sign a deal with NLC and then some Motherwell fan to win the Euro Millions to find a stadium that would be worth it. Although, I still think the atmosphere will be shit. The atmosphere at Livi/St Mirren/St Johnstone/Airdrie United etc. etc. has nothing to do with the Barr Construction and how it is built. Atmosphere is all down to the fans - and well Scottish football clubs fans just don't cut it.

[fatcalf]

Atmosphere is all down to the fans - and well Scottish football clubs fans just don't cut it.

Although Saturday was good but that was down to a few who kept it going rather than the entire support. Most sat on their hands all game.

Maybe if the authorities didn't view actively supporting your team as criminal activity we'd get more willing to join in right enough but too many are too happy just to sit and watch the game, and there's far too many sober folk going to games.