Leeann D

[steelboy]

In my personal opinion, we need league wide agreements on things so every club cuts their cloth equally and proportionately. We have an agreed, sensible, pricing structure (£15/£10 for example) and you pay that for Ibrox, Celtic Park, Fir Park, Tannadice etc etc). That would mean we'd all feel an equal pinch from loss of revenue but we'd all feel the same pinch and could all cut the same cloth, meaning an equal playing field (or, as equal as it is now).

 

that's all true but we're not just competing against the other spl sides, it's championship and league one sides that are taking our players off us. if every spl club voluntarily cut their income you'd just see even more players heading south.

 

it's also not a suprise that other clubs aren't as receptive to new ideas as we might be as hearts, kilmarnock, aberdeen, dundee united and the old firm all owe millions of pounds to banks.

[Shaka]

we should just grow a set and tell the Old Firm to split the money more evenly or get to fuck,then we`d be able to lower prices a bit! £12m pa for a tv deal, £4.5m each for them and the other 10 split £3m? piss off! Those c***y parasites have raped our game for long enough, time to call their bluff and tell them to help us all or piss off. They aint going to England,they aint going to some European jackanory league theyre stuck here so time to help instead of bleed our game more.

[steelboy]

edit - thought you meant gate money. i agree about the tv money.

[mjw]

The 5% ticket fee showed how fractured the game is with some clubs bending over and accepting it, with others humming and hawing before taking it when the 10 clubs should have told the old firm to GTF.Rangers are on there knees and an early exit from europe will hit celtic hard so this is the perfect time to stand up to them.I applaud leeann and flow using the media to put motherwell's point across but does all this talking go on at SPL meetings or is that just another old boys club like the SFA.

[SuperCC]

that's all true but we're not just competing against the other spl sides, it's championship and league one sides that are taking our players off us. if every spl club voluntarily cut their income you'd just see even more players heading south.

it's also not a suprise that other clubs aren't as receptive to new ideas as we might be as hearts, kilmarnock, aberdeen, dundee united and the old firm all owe millions of pounds to banks.

 

maybe thats what has to happen and our game has to find its level, which economically may be well below what some people are willing to admit

[steelboy]

i think there's some logic behind our decision to pay the 5%. directly selling tickets to old firm fans would incur big admin costs and probably be beyond the capabilities of our ticket office.

 

i'm sure we just bumped up the price and passed it on the old firm fans anyway.

 

maybe thats what has to happen and our game has to find its level, which economically may be well below what some people are willing to admit

 

it may well be but we don't have to cut prices, attendances in scotland are relatively excellent.

[Guest 'Flow]

it may well be but we don't have to cut prices, attendances in scotland are relatively excellent.

They are, but they are disproportionate to the overheads most SPL clubs face. You may well say that is the fault of the individual club for pushing costs so close to the main source of income but we all know why clubs spend the way they do, we've gone over it many times on here since admin in 2002.

 

However, with those gates falling, and falling dramatically, something has to give. The stat about the most attended per head of popula, whilst eye-catching at first, fails to delve into some of the major issues we're having due to falling gates. It may look good compared to, say, Norway but Aalesund, for example, have nearly four times as many season ticket holders as we do and can afford to pay 300k for a player!

 

John Boyle said in the Breidablik programme last week that the progress of Motherwell FC is directly related to how many pay to come at watch the team every fortnight. The more people that come - or in the case of football in Scotland now-a-days, the more that stop leaving, the more/greater change we have to compete.

 

The fact that attendances are falling, year on year, should be ringing alarm bells at every club. It certainly has at MFC but, as I've said, we need a collective solution that every SPL club buys into. As a league, we need to stop thinking about individual short-term preservation and start acting on long-term solutions and, ultimately, survival.

 

That's just my own personal opinion though and not necessarily those of MFC etc...

[LadywellToi]

Finding myself nodding at a few of your posts Flow, just out of interest and in a personal capacity rather than an official MFC one would you like see implemented to combat the declining numbers. I'm guessing you've probably been exposed to initiatives pursued by other clubs along with general feeling among our footballing top tier administrations.

[Guest 'Flow]

Without going in too deep - The problem you face is the one steelboy has talked about - the need for Motherwell (with zero bank debt) will certainly be different to those of, say, Kilmarnock who have massive debt to service....

 

It doesn't put is in a great place, far from it but our short-term priorities may be slightly different if we're trying to circumnavigate a large repayment plan.

 

My own personal opinion, and I am again stressing that I am talking as an individual and not from a club point of view, is that the main crux of the problem comes from the decision to take the power from an independent body and into the hands of the clubs themselves. It was a good idea back in 1997, but, after thirteen years, it has got to the stage that we've almost barricaded ourselves into a cul-de-sac because each club only looks out for themselves as a 1/12 equal share.

 

I can understand why clubs do that - if I were in charge of any SPL club I'd be doing the exact same thing. But, I think we the proverbial shit has to hit the fan, and soon! That's what I mean about having a 12-club solution as opposed to individual clubs doing their own thing...

 

12 clubs working in tandem, realising that change is required in order to save the 'perceived' sinking ship, has a much better chance of succeeding that one club, say Motherwell, taking the moral lead and doing things the proper way (i.e. reducing admission etc), no other club following, and that club severely suffering as a result. If one club has to swallow the bitter pill in these times of difficulty, then we all need to swallow the same pill and we'll be better off as a league for it.

 

In terms of what I would do to try and make Scottish football a better product. I've gone over bits and bobs already but a brief summary would be:

 

1. Reduce the ticket prices - the ultimate decision maker for the average fan now-a-days is a) Can I afford it and b) Is it worth what I am playing? Gone are the days clubs can expect fans, through sheer loyalty to the club, to turn up each and every week, pay their money and that's it. As people have said, football clubs, over the last two decades, have turned fans into customers. When fans become customers, expectations change and price and value for money is the big one.

 

2. When we play our games - I am a massive, massive advocate of summer football and I would love to see a March to October programme - which would tie in with point 3.

 

3. I'd like to see us extend the top league to sixteen teams, play each other twice - once home and once away! The 30 game league campaign would be topped up by a totally changed League Cup which would be played, similar to Iceland, at the start of the season and involve a Champions League style group stage competition (which would top the games up to almost what we have now).

 

4. I would like to see a collective change in attitude from our media in this country; involving them in the establishment of any new system with the aim to have the constant wave of negative stories splashed all over our papers stopped (or even slowed to start). I have no real problems with the OF taking up the majority of the coverage. We have a nation that is full of Rangers and Celtic fans so it is only normal the newspapers reflect this. However, positive coverage in the most part would create a freshness about the game and filter its way down, through the clubs and into the supporter’s base. The media have a massive, massive role to play in 'saving' our game.

 

5. I think we need to look at re-introducing safe standing areas in grounds for people who would prefer to stand whilst watching the game as opposed to sitting. That doesn't mean people standing in areas that are currently seated; I mean thinking about it again and perhaps adopting the German model which works well.

 

6. I think we need to start giving fans a clear set of what you can and cannot do in all football grounds - as opposed to one ground has this rule and another has that. Consistency is key! To that, I think we need to work to have our game less policed. We give fans (and clubs) too many hoops to jump through and too many obstacles to get over to watch and enjoy a game (forcing games to be all-ticket etc). That has to change because, by and large, football is pretty well self-policed in this country. That also involves the relaxation on the alcohol laws inside football grounds. Not a return to the "Bring your own Bucky", but a controlled, sensible approach much like they do, very simply, in England.

 

There are others, but they all centre around making the product, off the field, more enjoyable as a spectacle and, more importantly, making it cheaper and better value for money. If we do that, in my opinion, the fruits will be more money for clubs which should, hopefully, mean a better product on the park...

 

I'd like to introduce some more radical thinking too - but that would be further down the line. A wage cap and a minimum young Scot policy in each league (voluntary as opposed to mandatory to get around those watching on from Brussels).

 

What is certain is, the longer we do nothing, the worse it will get.

[LadywellToi]

All interesting and I apologise for putting the onus on you to compose such a lengthy email at 12:30am. If nothing else I think I may have created a monster on here in the days ahead by posing such a question and you answering it.

 

In answer to your points:

 

1) I think for what is on offer at present the current prices are unfair. So I agree, however as you point out it needs everyone in the league to buy into it.

 

2) I started a thread on summer football so as you can imagine I support it wholeheartedly too. As far as summers with Euro or WC finals then the league ends a bit later, simple. At the finals stages the Scottish players playing in the SPL are halfway through their season and still fresh and not burned out - bonus. Qualifiers generally take place between March to November so schedule the San Marino's and Andorra's at these times.

 

3) I like the idea of regional league cup groups (Us, Accies, Scumtown, Albion Rovers, Clyde) or a UK wide one (easier to envisage when Coca-Cola sponsored both). I'd rather play Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and Dundee Utd 4x a season than the top six in the 1st Division twice.

 

4) Media, hard to do when they spend so much time at Lennoxtown and Murray Park getting their bacon rolls and non-stories. Scandal and Ridicule sells, support and positivity doesn't. Like those old men in suits at the SFA I think the journo's are a certain breed who will oppose change, despite the greater good or higher ideals.

 

5) Goes without saying, best atmosphere I've ever had was at standing grounds or seating ones where everyone was standing.

 

6) Not sure about the booze as there is always one eejit. I'd like to see it possible to gain access to the Cooper from the East stand, stick a steel lintel in the side of the stand and cut through to the corridor underneath. Would allow majority of support the chance to visit shop and bar during the game, would think it would be relatively cheap to achieve.

 

Your other ideas are utopic in principal, they get my vote however too many greedy footballers/agents and chairmen out there.

 

Only other thing I'd add is I feel the big sign at the foot of Motherwell at the entrance to Strathclyde Park advertising some tribute band or amateur dramatic show is a major opportunity to advertise the product and forthcoming games. Maybe approach NLC and suggest updating it with a screen (vandal proof) so info can be changed easily and without significant cost. It can go between community info, MFC info and Fire prevention stuff for example.

 

You can buy 12x 42" TV's for £350 each just now, just set them up and link them IT guru style.

 

Most Wishaw (pop. 35,000) and Motherwell (pop. 30,000) traffic goes through these lights at least once a week. As the bring a friend for free deal last season against Falkirk showed not many people knew about it.

[Last post by:]

Only other thing I'd add is I feel the big sign at the foot of Motherwell at the entrance to Strathclyde Park advertising some tribute band or amateur dramatic show is a major opportunity to advertise the product and forthcoming games. Maybe approach NLC and suggest updating it with a screen (vandal proof) so info can be changed easily and without significant cost. It can go between community info, MFC info and Fire prevention stuff for example.

 

You can buy 12x 42" TV's for £350 each just now, just set them up and link them IT guru style.

 

Most Wishaw (pop. 35,000) and Motherwell (pop. 30,000) traffic goes through these lights at least once a week. As the bring a friend for free deal last season against Falkirk showed not many people knew about it.

 

Would be great to see some positive advertising on that board!

 

Think that would be a winner, could also drive people to the website/facebook sites for deals etc...

[Kmcalpin]

It was a good idea back in 1997, but, after thirteen years, it has got to the stage that we've almost barricaded ourselves into a cul-de-sac because each club only looks out for themselves as a 1/12 equal share.

 

Good post Flow. Therein lies much of Scottish football's problem. For many years SPL clubs have viewed almost every issue from their own perspective. As you well know this was very evident, for example, at the SPL vote to reject Falkirk's application to groundshare at Airdrie a few years ago. Despite the vote being about a single well defined issue, several clubs voted for other reasons entirely.

 

Until the 10 non OF clubs start working in harmony the SPL will struggle. They should adopt common marketing and pricing strategies for example. However, I suspect that some of the larger clubs non OF clubs will see themselves above this debate and adopt an "I'm all right Jack" position.

 

If we want to move forward we have to change attitudes. By that I mean the clubs, the governing bodies, the players, the media, and last but by no means least the fans both the diehards and the fair weather variety. Its a big task.

[steelman1991]

3: Yeah lets reintroduce the League Cup to a format which died on its feet back in the 70's. Whilst padding out the season to make up for the loss of games (and obviously revenue), it would make up for nothing in terms of entertainment/attraction value. If anything the competition is more attractive in its current format, than going back to a 'Champions League Group Format' - dress it up how you want Champions League (Spin) - its still the same teams producing the same fair.

 

Been going to football now for over 40 years, there's 3 fundamental things killing the game, Money, TV and Coaches. All 3 are stifling the game in its present format. And lets not believe its just here that the problem lies its worldwide - World Cup anybody (Perhaps the best game of the tourney was the one that meant nothing). Vicious circle I know but until the product on the park improves, there will be a continual drop-off in attendance - sad.

[weeyin]

Aye, I remember the last time we tried groups for the League Cup. It was a disaster, with far too many meaningless games after the first couple of rounds. I understand the revenue issues, but if we move to a 16 or 18 team league and play each other twice, we really shouldn't be trying to manufacture extra fixtures to guarantee 38 or whatever.

 

The point is to increase the quality.

[Steve Diggle]

The Skol Cup worked for a while did it not? - knock-out competition - over and done with by October / November.

 

Fell away when they rebranded / reformatted it and rolled it over into the following year.

[Frazzie]

Scrap summer fitba, scrap the league cup, 16-team league playing each other twice and bring back the Texaco Cup.

 

That would be absolutely marvellous.

[steelboy]

The Skol Cup worked for a while did it not? - knock-out competition - over and done with by October / November.

 

Fell away when they rebranded / reformatted it and rolled it over into the following year.

 

the league cup works when your team does well in it, when we got to the final we thought it was the dogs baws. even last season it saw our biggest travelling support by a mile so it can't be that bad.

 

Scrap summer fitba, scrap the league cup, 16-team league playing each other twice and bring back the Texaco Cup.

 

That would be absolutely marvellous

 

with even championship teams putting out weakened sides in the FA cup these days there's no chance of getting any interest in a revamped texaco.

[steelman1991]

Didn't advocate scrapping the League Cup (its one of only 2 trophies we can realistically win) - it was the format I was referring to. None of the formats (league, knock-out) have been particularly successfull and the League Cup has never really been seen as anything other than a nuisance since they took away the Europe Qualification for the winners. Keep it as it is.

 

Would love to see a Texaco Cup type competition re-emerge, but like steelboy says the waning popularity of the FA Cup and teams indifference to it would mean its was non-starter.

[decorator]

bring back roger hynd

[Frazzie]

Aye, but I think a big part of the reason why interest is dwindling in the FA Cup down south is because Championship teams and even smaller Premiership teams know that it's pretty unlikely that they'll win it, and that the financial implications down there make staying up/getting promoted/finishing higher in the table much more important than any cup glory.

 

But since the Texaco Cup excludes teams that are playing in Europe, a team like Wigan (for example) would see a realistic chance of silverwear and a place in Europe. It would also help the likes of Man Utd as they are always complaining of a fixture build-up with the Champions League, etc, especially now that they have a maximum 25 man squad to choose from. The only teams I could see compaining about it would be the Old Firm, as one of them usually wins our league cup and gets the benefit of that, while they usually get papped out of Europe early doors. Far more winners than losers as far as I can see.

[TheLip69]

Yes she was, going by the quotes here. She didn't say fans didn't understand it, she said they didn't want to hear it and, by and large, I think that's true

 

 

Of course it's not true, it might be true for you, you may want to bury your head in the sand and hope everything works out alright, I dont.

I, and many others, want to know and in fact I believe we need to know you just cant sit back and say we dont want to hear it as some sort of excuse not to tell us. I work in finance, I read balance sheets and financial accounts the way some of you read the Wishaw press, minus the finger under every word and the moving lips of course. So, forgive me if I get a wee bit uppity when people say I dont want to hear it.

 

The fact is we cant get more fans into the game until we reduce prices, and we cant reduce prices until we get more fans into the game.

To quote Yossarian "That's some catch that Catch 22"

 

I'll tell you what I'd do, I'd add £2 to the price of every adult ticket, and let the kids in for free. Fathers would be able to afford to bring all of their kids, I know one guy with three boys who takes them to alternate home games. As he says it's not the two at home jealous of the one at the game it's the other way about, he's miffed because his brothers are out with their mates or playing on the X-box while he's at the match with his Dad.

he did say though that the one time he made the effort to take all three, the Nancy game, they all sang all night and battered those bloody ballons all through the match and all the way home loving every minute of it. Get the 3 of them together every week and you've got them for life.

 

How much would the club lose if they let kids in for sod all? There would probably be more kids buying more snacks and how many more paying fans would that generate when these guys leave school and start earning a few bob?

 

Kids are the lifeblood of the game, that's why most clubs turned a blind eye when we got lifted over the turnstile years ago.

I remember my dad lifting me over the trunstile at Fir Park and a policeman helping me down at the other end.

 

We need to make it easier for kids to watch football.

[Wellimp]

Kids are the lifeblood of the game, that's why most clubs turned a blind eye when we got lifted over the turnstile years ago.

I remember my dad lifting me over the trunstile at Fir Park and a policeman helping me down at the other end.

 

We need to make it easier for kids to watch football.

 

I remember getting lifted over the turnstiles for years as a young kid.

I also remember one of the players (possibly Willie McVie) coming out to the steps at the front of the Main Stand most home games and taking a group of us young kids through the tunnel and into the enclosure in front of the Main Stand.

Must have got a few of us hooked on Motherwell Football Club.

[steelboy]

We need to make it easier for kids to watch football.

 

they're giving out free kids season tickets in the cooper, what more do you want?

[Haggischomper]

I don't think kids are the problem. It's older guys that are disappearing. PLENTY is done to get kids through the gates but I bet we all know a few ex-seaon tivket holders/ex-regulars who no longer go (for one reason or another). THOSE are the guys we should be trying to entice back.

[mfc]

I don't think kids are the problem. It's older guys that are disappearing. PLENTY is done to get kids through the gates but I bet we all know a few ex-seaon tivket holders/ex-regulars who no longer go (for one reason or another). THOSE are the guys we should be trying to entice back.

 

 

good point haggis theres always ways of getting kids to come along ie the free season ticket offer which was a great gesture by the club.i know 3 guys 2 of which were season ticket holders that would never miss a home game and now your lucky if they make 2 games a season and the reason is purely financial.it must be a tough task trying to balance the finances at any scottish club right now but unless there is drastic changes throughout then more and more people will be forced away and the longer there away the harder it will be to try and get them back