Jonesy Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Any return to the play offs is guarenteed to be our old system of 2nd bottom of SPL against 2nd in Division 1 rather than a copy of what the English leagues or SFL has in place at the moment. I always thought that was a good system, and we're never going to get them approving a straight 2 up, 2 down so it'll be the best we get. There are arguments for the play off system in England I think, though. With their leagues consisting of 24 teams they need to have them in place to give everyone something to play for and keep things interesting. Every season they tend to have 2/3, maybe 4 teams fighting for the automatic places, so if you take away the play off spots it's leaving about 12/14 teams with nothing to play for as they will be in no danger of relegation or catching the top 3. Introducing this same type of system into the SFL with teams of 10 is a complete farce. It could be giving teams who finished closer to the bottom team than the teams at the top. A straight 2 up, 2 down in the SFL would be far better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Play-offs are, indeed, a joke. The entire point of a league system is to reward consistency over a season. For the purists yes, but nowadays the entire point of football is to make as much money as possible in order to afford the best players. Then it is to entertain the supporters (bringing in money at the gate, allowing teams to afford the best players.) Playoffs and splits allow this; 18 team leagues with 34 games, a winner, two relegation spots and 10-12 teams playing for fuck all from January/February onwards don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 For the purists yes, but nowadays the entire point of football is to make as much money as possible in order to afford the best players. Then it is to entertain the supporters (bringing in money at the gate, allowing teams to afford the best players.) Playoffs and splits allow this; 18 team leagues with 34 games, a winner, two relegation spots and 10-12 teams playing for fuck all from January/February onwards don't.If you finish above the relegation zone by accumulating sufficient points during a league campaign, but get relegated during a playoff, I doubt you are going to be making more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Wellfan 2k7 Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Why not just make the league a cup competition, that way the top two would play in a League decider every year. . Well it wouldn't be fair on the Team that finished top, but lost out due to a single bad performance at the end of the season, Even though they may have finished top with a far superior points and Goals Difference. It wouldn't work. Fair Enough, if both teams finish Equally across the board and have drawn their games with each other, then there would be a play off decider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casagolda Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 I can't believe so many think - what we have is as good is it ever will get. The current system is the best possible Financially: We play 38 games, the most a top division can play The structure allows TV deals to be sold on 4 OF games, Edinburgh derbies, etc Competitively: A reachable and solid measure of success for clubs outside the OF in the form of the top six Final games in the season are against closest rivals Minus points for the 1 up one down system. They should AT LEAST have a playoff for the 11th team vs 2nd in the first. Sustainability: A league big enough to encompass more than 25% of Scottish League teams and over 50% of full time teams Any bigger and the lower divisions will suffer from the better (and almost invariably bigger) teams being removed from their division Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanr Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Well it wouldn't be fair on the Team that finished top, but lost out due to a single bad performance at the end of the season, Even though they may have finished top with a far superior points and Goals Difference. It wouldn't work. Fair Enough, if both teams finish Equally across the board and have drawn their games with each other, then there would be a play off decider. I think the point was that a league playoff would be just as 'fair' as a relegation one. I don't have a problem with the playoffs if it's between 2nd in the 1st division and 2nd bottom on the premier. England's playoffs are a bit of a joke and are purely for a commercial benefit rather than a sporting one. On the league proposals, I'm a bit worried about the BBC report that the favoured idea is a 6/8 or 8/6 split after one round of games. That would be worse than the current setup imo and we would probably quite often find ourselves with nothing to play for after 26 games. With a few mid-table teams who's fans are already fed up of that I wouldn't wish much more years of worse than that on them. IMO the best layout is a 16 or 18 team league, where each teams plays each other twice and that is it. That may not add up for the money men, but if clubs are really interested in the 'good of the game' then they will look beyond how much gate money they can get in and go back to basics with regards to league associations, pro youth, the national team, competition, sharing of gate money, standing at games, obscene players wages etc. Otherwise, league reconstruction will just be another failed attempt at 'bringing the crowds back'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 16-16-10, no split, 2 up/down and/or play off Bring back the league cup sections before the league starts. Simple, wonder if it'll ever happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho1991 Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 16-16-10, no split, 2 up/down and/or play off Bring back the league cup sections before the league starts. Simple, wonder if it'll ever happen Exactly ! Steelboy is deluded if he thinks scottish football is fine the way it is ! He would prefer attendances to continue to plummet. He rubbishes every suggestion but can't come up with an idea to improve scottish football! What I take from that is he is happy with the way scottish football is at the moment. Well hear it from me Steelboy! I am sick of attendances falling! It is about time we changed fanny! Let us have a go at any of the suggestions tabled by the McLeish report and stop being so fucking sceptical!! Change can be good you know !!! Bring on the 16 team league !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 It's not about things being fine at the moment, it's about being realistic about what is achievable with all the factors that exist in football today and a 12 team league, or 14 at a stretch is about the best we can hope for. There's wall to wall games on the telly which accounts for the falling attendances (not convinced they're dropping all that dramatically anyway), it takes an 11-1 vote for the league to be changed, clubs aren't going to give up an extra game against the OF, we would get less TV money if there were less games, the OF certainly aren't going to give up 2 games against each other, the league cup sections had abysmal attendances last time round etc etc. In an ideal world where the supporter was king we'd all like to see a 16/18 team top league, but that isn't the world we live in anymore, so suggestions like that are completely unrealistic. Money is king now, and all clubs want to do is maximise their income so they can survive. Anyway, if the TV deal was smaller and there were less games, maybe we'd get the league set up we crave, but with less income to spend on players, the standard on show would be even more atrocious than it is these days...unless clubs increased the entrance fee - and I don't think us fans would suffer either of those scenarios for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special aka Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Scottish football needs a whole lot more than a SPL restructuring to save it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yabba's Turd Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Doesn't there have to be a minimum number of games to qualify for Uefa competition? 16 team league is only 30 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Wellfan 2k7 Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Doesn't there have to be a minimum number of games to qualify for Uefa competition? 16 team league is only 30 games. I was under the impression that there was to be the 30 games plus additional post Split fixtures to take the overall total of games to 37 Per team, (with an 8 up 8 down Split) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman1991 Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 16-16-10, no split, 2 up/down and/or play off Bring back the league cup sections before the league starts. Simple, wonder if it'll ever happen How old are you? Do you even remember the old League Cup Sections? It was a competition dying on its feet, and failing attendances were the reason for its demise. What has changed in the last 30 years to think that it should be included as part of the blueprint for the future. Still the same mediocre teams, playing mediocre football to the same audience. Boy if anything was going to galvanise the public out of their armchairs into football grounds again it was always going to be the reintroduction of the League Cup in sections If this is the extent of our thinking for the future I really do despair for the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaag Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Bring back the Texaco Cup Oh, and the Tennents Sixes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special aka Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 and the Dryburgh Cup with the "offside" line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 How old are you? Do you even remember the old League Cup Sections? It was a competition dying on its feet, and failing attendances were the reason for its demise. What has changed in the last 30 years to think that it should be included as part of the blueprint for the future. Still the same mediocre teams, playing mediocre football to the same audience. Boy if anything was going to galvanise the public out of their armchairs into football grounds again it was always going to be the reintroduction of the League Cup in sections If this is the extent of our thinking for the future I really do despair for the game. Yet the League Cup sections was the blueprint for the Champions league. The league cup sections were played at the beginning of the season, if I remember correctly they were the season opener. The attendances were poor due to holidays and the fact that they were played Saturday, Wednesday, Saturday. There are too many games at the moment, particularly with European qualifying so early in the season, there isn't room for the League Cup to be played in sections. We need a minimum of 16 teams ( I would prefer 18), two up, two down, no split. Leave the cups as they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 It doesn't matter how many teams are in the league - it won't make any significant difference to attendances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Doesn't there have to be a minimum number of games to qualify for Uefa competition? 16 team league is only 30 games. Portugal has a 16 team set up with 30 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Exactly ! Steelboy is deluded if he thinks scottish football is fine the way it is ! He would prefer attendances to continue to plummet. He rubbishes every suggestion but can't come up with an idea to improve scottish football! What I take from that is he is happy with the way scottish football is at the moment. Well hear it from me Steelboy! I am sick of attendances falling! It is about time we changed fanny! Let us have a go at any of the suggestions tabled by the McLeish report and stop being so fucking sceptical!! Change can be good you know !!! Bring on the 16 team league !!! i do actually like the way scottish football is at the moment is at the moment, that's why i go to games. i can obviously see that things could be better but i don't agree that league reconstruction is going to solve any of the problems. as madwullie and casgagolda have pointed out in this thread and onthefringes discusses in some detail in osb expansion is likely to knacker things more than they already are. as for solutions i'll say what i say every time this topic comes up. the only thing that is likely to improve scottish football is large amounts of investment in facilities and qualified coaches at grassroots level. that's what made the spanish the best team in the world, that's why germany have got the best group of youngsters emerging and that's why iceland have an u21 squad filled with talented players with full caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 as for solutions i'll say what i say every time this topic comes up. the only thing that is likely to improve scottish football is large amounts of investment in facilities and qualified coaches at grassroots level. that's what made the spanish the best team in the world, that's why germany have got the best group of youngsters emerging and that's why iceland have an u21 squad filled with talented players with full caps. What's most annoying about that is I can remember when I was younger the powers that be were talking up the dutch system and how we needed to move to it - less competition, more focus on technique etc. 20 years later they're still talking about that being the way to go but no c**t has done anything about it - meanwhile Scotland is producing very little in the way of talented footballers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yabba's Turd Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 we have less competition - under whatever's have no league and results only count on the day, BUT, knowing the celtic set up it's still a pissing contest between their coaches when the teams meet, so no doubt winning IS important to these fuds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn_Broomfield Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 as for solutions i'll say what i say every time this topic comes up. the only thing that is likely to improve scottish football is large amounts of investment in facilities and qualified coaches at grassroots level. that's what made the spanish the best team in the world, that's why germany have got the best group of youngsters emerging and that's why iceland have an u21 squad filled with talented players with full caps. Bang!! Turkey's don't vote for Christmas, so there will be no change to the current set up. Major investment in grass roots football, facilities for youth players to showcase their talents. Less emphasis on winning at all costs at youth level. By this I don't mean less competitive mentalities, I mean more focus on footballing ability rather than sheer size and athleticism as the latter can be worked on later. Coaches like Levein, Jeffries and Houston represent everything that is wrong with Scottish football from a coaching sense, yet 2 of them are involved with the National side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 How old are you? Do you even remember the old League Cup Sections? It was a competition dying on its feet, and failing attendances were the reason for its demise. What has changed in the last 30 years to think that it should be included as part of the blueprint for the future. Still the same mediocre teams, playing mediocre football to the same audience. Boy if anything was going to galvanise the public out of their armchairs into football grounds again it was always going to be the reintroduction of the League Cup in sections If this is the extent of our thinking for the future I really do despair for the game. I'm 44 and remember the league cup sections well ya cheeky bugger! OK so they weren't perfect but the tournament ran in that format for over 30 years. I can remember attending section games in the 70's against Aberdeen, Hearts or the OF in front of between 10 and 20 thousand. The reason for its demise was the introduction of the 10 team premier league in 1975 which meant playing some teams 7 or 8 times a season( including scottish and anglo scottish cups). Couldn't be any worse than the joke system we have now and would doubt if the crowds would be any less than we get for the equivalent SPL games. And would bring the total home games up to 18. Rant over!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 Couldn't be any worse than the joke system we have now and would doubt if the crowds would be any less than we get for the equivalent SPL games. league cup games already have lower crowds than than for their equivalent spl games. add in that some of the games would be dead rubbers and that gate money would have to be split and it makes even less sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 league cup games already have lower crowds than than for their equivalent spl games. add in that some of the games would be dead rubbers and that gate money would have to be split and it makes even less sense. True but all are played in midweek now where some section games would be played on a Saturday and at the start of the season when interest would be greater. Gate money could be retained by the home teams as in the league, although I would prefer this to be split as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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