Dario Quinn

[Kmcalpin]

In see that Dario Quinn had a good game for Linlithgow at the weekend, scoring a goal and turning in a bandaged Terry Butcher like performance. It was interesting that he said that he hoped the club would clarfy his position shortly.

[wee g]

Spoke with the big chap today and says he is enjoying it. He had three staples put into the head wound, but he`s as strong as an ox. Stolls through games at times. Really good strong centre-half.

[Kmcalpin]

Gven his remarks at the club's AGM a few months ago, Craig Brown rates him as being a good prospect.

[nethertonwellfan]

I think we should punt more players out to the juniors. It used to happen in the old days and it wasn't that long ago that junior football was of a decent level. Will you ever see a Dougie Arnott signing for a SPL club again ?

[Paisley Steelman]

Far better farming young players out to gain first team action rather than sitting on the bench or playing bounce matches

[East Stand Screamer]

The youth system at Fir Park gets a good name, and rightly so, but it could be far much better. I had a son at the club from the age of 8 til 15, but he and all but two of his team mates were let go a few years ago citing the jump from 15s to 17s. At the time young Dario was playing for Hamilton, I believe, and the Motherwell team at the time were unbeaten, even against Celtic and Rangers, and had gone on to win the St Andrews Cup, against teams from Europe and England, twice.

 

Now, 90% of these boys, most of whom were good, solid footballers and some of whom were stand outs are either playing boys club, maybe amateurs or not at all.

 

Ironically, two that were let go have become professionals in the lower leagues, and are doing a turn and earning a living.

 

This isn't a new thing at Motherwell - now, I know a lot of you guys are going to say "if they're good enough, they'll be kept", but that isn't so. For instance, in my own son's case he was released because his position was filled by older lads who were getting sniffed by Scotland.

 

I'm not criticising the system out some "bleh my son is brilliant", because everyone does think that, but when all but two of a team of twenty, the majority of whom had been together for five years, are let go for various reasons, it would suggest to me that due to that jump a lot of untapped talent is being disgarded whether it be due to luck or positioning. I know that some of the smaller clubs - Clyde for instance at this time - were bridging that gap with an u16, and were playing other times "unofficially" with players let go from all over. They had Celts, Gers, Steelmen, Dons and Arabs in their team at this time.

 

Although Dario is a solid big chap, him and perhaps a few others, like Jamie Pollock for instance who skirts the first team occasionally, have as much to thank luck as talent for.

 

But good luck to them, because once in the system properly, like young Murphy and previously James McFadden, we can see what they are indeed capable of.

 

Blimey, first post and it goes on and on!

[steelboy]

Although Dario is a solid big chap, him and perhaps a few others, like Jamie Pollock for instance who skirts the first team occasionally, have as much to thank luck as talent for.

 

jamie pollock was picked for the u19 euros squad the past two seasons, he must have a bit more than luck going for him.

[Andy_P]

Interesting post East Stand Screamer.

 

Other than catching the odd U19 game, I've go no first-hand experience of how youth development systems operate but from an outsiders perspective the promotion of youngsters has always struck me as being something that's far from an exact science.

 

My perception is that its always been the case that you generally only get two or three from every group that get professional deals. I think that was why the club made a bit of a noise about Quinn, Halsman, Smith, Lawless and Meechan all getting deals in the summer, because its such a rarity that so many got promoted from the one side.

 

Ofcourse that makes it hugely difficult for the youths trying to win a deal and I think there has to be an element of sympathy for both player and club when it comes down to the choosing who to keep on.

 

There are loads of factors I would imagine would come into play. There's obviously finance in terms of what the club can offer and what kind of squad they are looking to carry, the strength of the existing first team in that player's position. There's there's the physical stature of the player. Has that player fully grown, is there more to come.

 

And if the teams, as is the case of Motherwell's, been fairly successful and are of a good standard it must make the job the coaches and manager attempting to look into the future to make a best guess at who has the best chance all that more tricky.

 

I don't know whether its viewed as a positive and whether the club point it out to prospective newcomers but it I think the smattering of players in the lower leagues who have a grounding at Fir Park is to our youth set up's credit - the idea that if you don't make it with us, it'll still stand you in good stead that you've been with us.

[daver]

With various teams at different ages and obviously only one first team, it goes without saying that only a few players from each age group can be kept on. It must be very difficult to try and judge who has the most potential and thankully the club pay people with more football knowledge than most of us to make these decisions. Inevitably some gems will slip through the net and we'll hold on to some that don't quite make it but hopefully those that are let go can pick themselves up and get on with finding another club where they will be given the chance.

[Dezz]

Is it not true that nowadays, when a club is scouting a lad at boys club level, the majority of the time they are concentrating more on the physical attributes of the player rather than footballing ability??

You can teach a player how to head or dribble a ball but you can't teach someone to be tall or naturally quick sorta thing.

I'm sure I read a post on here a few months ago from a poster who had some knowledge of scouting at youth level who said as much, although I may be wrong.

[airfinz]

If history has taught us anything about Craig Brown, it is that this current wave of Motherwell youngsters will fall by the wayside.

 

Case study Nr1: Ross Forbes. Had an excellent start under Jim Gannon, when he tended to get played in his correct playmaking CM role. He started to wane towards the end of JG's tenure.........then something horrible happened to the lad (and probably the rest of the well kids)........we appointed Craig Brown.

 

The way that Forbes has fallen from grace under Brown has been shocking. His confidence seems to be shot to bits due to being played out of position, in a position he clearly cannot play - Charlie Adam similarities anyone?

 

I worry for McHugh. Seems like a prospect, but was prevented going out on loan last January by Broon, as he 'featured in our plans.' Since then, he has had a lot of 10-20 minute cameos, but that is it! Surely 6 months in the 1st div would have been far more benificial for Bob?

 

Probably going against the grain, but despite the excellent short term results, I worry that our medium to long term plans are in jeopardy with CB as our main man. He is afterall, one of the 2 men (along with Roxburgh) who can take more than a portion of the blame for the state of our game.

[East Stand Screamer]

jamie pollock was picked for the u19 euros squad the past two seasons, he must have a bit more than luck going for him.

The truth behind Jamie Pollock is that in that team his contemporaries were just as good if not better. The reason he was taken further on was that he had a particularly good game against Killie in the 15s when a Scotland scout was watching and he told Chris McCart he'd have another look at him later. McCart told me specifically "we have to keep him on, or its egg on our face if Scotland come calling and we've let him go."

 

Now, that's not to say the boy isn't good, he is. He works hard, he keeps his nose clean and he has a lot of natural ability. I'm not slagging the laddie off. And, as you said, he's made the Euro squad too. However, two games before that Killie game, he couldn't get a run in the team for another left sided player, who unfortunately got injured (not my son before anyone thinks its hard cheese). THAT boy was released at the end of the season, Jamie, luckily, got kept on cos Scotland were watching.

 

So talent has kept him there, but luck got him there in the first place.

[Steve Diggle]

If history has taught us anything about Craig Brown, it is that this current wave of Motherwell youngsters will fall by the wayside.

 

Case study Nr1: Ross Forbes. Had an excellent start under Jim Gannon, when he tended to get played in his correct playmaking CM role. He started to wane towards the end of JG's tenure.........then something horrible happened to the lad (and probably the rest of the well kids)........we appointed Craig Brown.

 

The way that Forbes has fallen from grace under Brown has been shocking. His confidence seems to be shot to bits due to being played out of position, in a position he clearly cannot play - Charlie Adam similarities anyone?

 

I worry for McHugh. Seems like a prospect, but was prevented going out on loan last January by Broon, as he 'featured in our plans.' Since then, he has had a lot of 10-20 minute cameos, but that is it! Surely 6 months in the 1st div would have been far more benificial for Bob?

 

Probably going against the grain, but despite the excellent short term results, I worry that our medium to long term plans are in jeopardy with CB as our main man. He is afterall, one of the 2 men (along with Roxburgh) who can take more than a portion of the blame for the state of our game.

 

You can't say that on here!

 

But I agree with every word airfinz. Short term doin great - long term I just don't see where we're going and agree that the young guys coming through need some game time and a least a fighting chance to play to their strengths when they get a sniff.

 

The old Scotland addage - 11 or 12 first pick players that will play in any combination / any position just to keep those names on paper. We seen it with the Hateley at left back issue the other week. Playing someone woefully out of position - just to avoid bring one of the 'lesser lights' in. Didn't do Hateley any favours!

[Wellfan1984]

If history has taught us anything about Craig Brown, it is that this current wave of Motherwell youngsters will fall by the wayside.

 

Case study Nr1: Ross Forbes. Had an excellent start under Jim Gannon, when he tended to get played in his correct playmaking CM role. He started to wane towards the end of JG's tenure.........then something horrible happened to the lad (and probably the rest of the well kids)........we appointed Craig Brown.

 

The way that Forbes has fallen from grace under Brown has been shocking. His confidence seems to be shot to bits due to being played out of position, in a position he clearly cannot play - Charlie Adam similarities anyone?

 

I worry for McHugh. Seems like a prospect, but was prevented going out on loan last January by Broon, as he 'featured in our plans.' Since then, he has had a lot of 10-20 minute cameos, but that is it! Surely 6 months in the 1st div would have been far more benificial for Bob?

 

Probably going against the grain, but despite the excellent short term results, I worry that our medium to long term plans are in jeopardy with CB as our main man. He is afterall, one of the 2 men (along with Roxburgh) who can take more than a portion of the blame for the state of our game.

 

Craig Brown's Youth History is second to none in Scotland. Took our National Youths to their greatest ever standing.

 

But I forgot, our team is currently filled with 30 somethings from back to front - except that there is only one player over the age of 30 currently on our books. Many of our team is still under 26 years old, which in football terms is still very young! People moaned we were going to sign every old journey man in the game when he was given the job, instead we gave half dozen youth players 3 year contracts, signed all but one player that was out of contract to at least a further year - three in most instances and signed a couple of players (loan or not) all under the age of 30!

 

So in theory, we've signed players that still have in them a 5-10 years or more in the game - yet there is no long term plan? Which Motherwell manager are we comparing him to? As none have signed so many youth players on longer contracts.

[Steve Diggle]

Craig Brown's Youth History is second to none in Scotland. Took our National Youths to their greatest ever standing.

 

But I forgot, our team is currently filled with 30 somethings from back to front - except that there is only one player over the age of 30 currently on our books. Many of our team is still under 26 years old, which in football terms is still very young! People moaned we were going to sign every old journey man in the game when he was given the job, instead we gave half dozen youth players 3 year contracts, signed all but one player that was out of contract to at least a further year - three in most instances and signed a couple of players (loan or not) all under the age of 30!

 

So in theory, we've signed players that still have in them a 5-10 years or more in the game - yet there is no long term plan? Which Motherwell manager are we comparing him to? As none have signed so many youth players on longer contracts.

 

You're a master at not really reading or understanding or responding to the point that is being made.

 

The primary point is about re-introducing young guys who already have had first team experience at our club in a successful manner.

 

At least thats how I read it.

 

Oh and you don't have to look far back for a better record on signing youth on long contracts or bringing in players in the window.

[WishyWell]

Is it not true that nowadays, when a club is scouting a lad at boys club level, the majority of the time they are concentrating more on the physical attributes of the player rather than footballing ability??

You can teach a player how to head or dribble a ball but you can't teach someone to be tall or naturally quick sorta thing.

I'm sure I read a post on here a few months ago from a poster who had some knowledge of scouting at youth level who said as much, although I may be wrong.

 

I could talk all day on this point. It certainly is true in the case of many teams - the Old Firm, Hamilton, Hearts, St Mirren, Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd being the worst - who fill their teams with a large number of huge physical boys from the age of 9 onwards and steamroller the smaller teams like ourselves. Not only do they bully our boys out of playing their passing game through their physical advantage, but they by and large are coached to win games based on their size - eg last season our under-12s lost 7 goals against Celtic and another 7 against Hamilton in successive games, with all but one in each game coming from identical corners: the ball dropped into the goalmouth while 5 or 6 enormous boys all rushed into that one spot.

 

What tends to happen is that the teams like Motherwell get beaten regularly at the younger end of the agegroups by these bigger teams, but then, around u15 level, our boys start growing and start to match them physically, at which point our superior footballing ability comes into play while the opposition have nothing more to offer, and we start winning games.

 

I remember Chris McCart saying once when he was with us that it is the easiest thing in the world to build a winning team at under-11s: just fill it with big athletic boys. But a youth system is about developing boys as footballers, not about results, something these other clubs don't seem to get. Maybe they think that if they win a lot of games, the good players will come to them, but I haven't seen much evidence of it.

 

The provincial clubs that had the big boys then start to fall back, althought the Old Firm get round this by picking off the better players from the other clubs and abroad. It think it was Rangers u15 last season that were dropped almost en masse and they brought in a whole new squad. Hamilton, as we saw last weekend, just keep the same footballing philosophy through to their first team!

 

There are two big problems with this, though, one for Scottish football as a whole and one for us. First, most of the ball-players are lost to the Pro-Youth system as there are only a few clubs picking them up in any great numbers, and so there is not a great pool of creative players feeding through to the senior ranks; and for Motherwell, it is hard for young players aged 11, 12, 13, and many of their parents, to look long term and not get depressed at the boys losing so often, sometimes quite heavily.

 

The advantage for Motherwell is that, while the others are taking the big boys, we are left to choose from the more talented boys from Lanarkshire and this end of Glasgow. However, it is infuriating when they are coached to pass and move all week and then come up against a team on the Sunday with a core of 5'10" built-like-an-ox 12-year-olds who close them down and stop them playing they way they have been taught... and the way that all the country's youngsters should be taught.

 

At least we are doing it the right way!

 

Yikes - I nearly did talk all day on it! Apologies for going on a bit, but it drives me nuts.

[johnstone]

The reason McHugh hasn't been given a chance is because Murphy, Blackman, Humphrey Sutton and Gow have all made an instant impact this season. Nothing else to it.

 

I agree Forbes is played out of position, but he hasn't been given much of a chance becuse Lasley and Jennings work really well together.

 

Also the comment about it being Brown and Roxburugh's fault the game is in its current state is the biggest load of bollocks I have ever heard. These guys got us to Euro and World Cup finals, which would no doubt boost our national and club level game - not hinder it.

 

The fact that Forbes and McHugh are at least getting game time justifys their inclusion in the squad.

 

We can't farm every youngster out to other clubs either or we will end up with no cover.

[steelboy]

If history has taught us anything about Craig Brown, it is that this current wave of Motherwell youngsters will fall by the wayside.

 

Case study Nr1: Ross Forbes. Had an excellent start under Jim Gannon, when he tended to get played in his correct playmaking CM role. He started to wane towards the end of JG's tenure.........then something horrible happened to the lad (and probably the rest of the well kids)........we appointed Craig Brown.

 

The way that Forbes has fallen from grace under Brown has been shocking. His confidence seems to be shot to bits due to being played out of position, in a position he clearly cannot play - Charlie Adam similarities anyone?

 

I worry for McHugh. Seems like a prospect, but was prevented going out on loan last January by Broon, as he 'featured in our plans.' Since then, he has had a lot of 10-20 minute cameos, but that is it! Surely 6 months in the 1st div would have been far more benificial for Bob?

 

Probably going against the grain, but despite the excellent short term results, I worry that our medium to long term plans are in jeopardy with CB as our main man. He is afterall, one of the 2 men (along with Roxburgh) who can take more than a portion of the blame for the state of our game.

 

how can you blame craig brown for every team in scotland deciding to fill their teams with overpaid, shite foriegners rather than bring through young scottish players in the 90s and early 00s? that's why the national became so shite, nothing to do with brown and roxburgh.

 

the reason forbes is struggling is because he's not good enough. he is either incapable or unwilling to get into the required physical state for the spl and if you look back when has he actually had a good game in the spl? the 3-1 win over killie is about the only one i can think of.

 

saunders and page have had a decent amount of game time this season and hutchy will get his opportunity when reynolds leaves. mchugh probably would benefit from a loan spell but with casagolda being injured we need him here just now, there's plenty of time for boab anyway as he's only 19.

 

ess- anytime i've seen jamie pollock play for the u19s he's probably been the best player on the park in terms of touch in passing. if there are boys that are better they surely won't have a hard time getting a club and establishing themselves.

[Yabba's Turd]

Shouldn't we introduce under 16 football? Under 15 to 17 is a big jump and this is where players get lost, would some players benefit from another year in their development before they get released?

[Wellfan1984]

It would be a good idea. This is how we have until recently fallen behind England in the Victory Shield. When I was younger (probably still the same now) every club from the top to the district league level whatever had an U16 side.

[Dezz]

I could talk all day on this point. It certainly is true in the case of many teams - the Old Firm, Hamilton, Hearts, St Mirren, Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd being the worst - who fill their teams with a large number of huge physical boys from the age of 9 onwards and steamroller the smaller teams like ourselves. Not only do they bully our boys out of playing their passing game through their physical advantage, but they by and large are coached to win games based on their size - eg last season our under-12s lost 7 goals against Celtic and another 7 against Hamilton in successive games, with all but one in each game coming from identical corners: the ball dropped into the goalmouth while 5 or 6 enormous boys all rushed into that one spot.

 

What tends to happen is that the teams like Motherwell get beaten regularly at the younger end of the agegroups by these bigger teams, but then, around u15 level, our boys start growing and start to match them physically, at which point our superior footballing ability comes into play while the opposition have nothing more to offer, and we start winning games.

 

I remember Chris McCart saying once when he was with us that it is the easiest thing in the world to build a winning team at under-11s: just fill it with big athletic boys. But a youth system is about developing boys as footballers, not about results, something these other clubs don't seem to get. Maybe they think that if they win a lot of games, the good players will come to them, but I haven't seen much evidence of it.

 

The provincial clubs that had the big boys then start to fall back, althought the Old Firm get round this by picking off the better players from the other clubs and abroad. It think it was Rangers u15 last season that were dropped almost en masse and they brought in a whole new squad. Hamilton, as we saw last weekend, just keep the same footballing philosophy through to their first team!

 

There are two big problems with this, though, one for Scottish football as a whole and one for us. First, most of the ball-players are lost to the Pro-Youth system as there are only a few clubs picking them up in any great numbers, and so there is not a great pool of creative players feeding through to the senior ranks; and for Motherwell, it is hard for young players aged 11, 12, 13, and many of their parents, to look long term and not get depressed at the boys losing so often, sometimes quite heavily.

 

The advantage for Motherwell is that, while the others are taking the big boys, we are left to choose from the more talented boys from Lanarkshire and this end of Glasgow. However, it is infuriating when they are coached to pass and move all week and then come up against a team on the Sunday with a core of 5'10" built-like-an-ox 12-year-olds who close them down and stop them playing they way they have been taught... and the way that all the country's youngsters should be taught.

 

At least we are doing it the right way!

 

Yikes - I nearly did talk all day on it! Apologies for going on a bit, but it drives me nuts.

 

 

Thanks for that mate, really good and interesting post. Seems to be the majority of the teams you have mentioned above keep that philosophy going through to the first team, Accies, Dundee Utd and Killie especially. (not so much this season to be fair to killie)

Must be really disheartening for the younger lads coming up against these bigger boys and losing heavily - just hope they can see that in the longer term the way our youth system is works will make them better footballers.

I guess a good example would be Reynolds vs Kenneth at Utd..both centre halves, both came through the respective youth systems, one a damn good footballer and one a big physical brute taught to heed the baw..and even a that hes not very good.

[johnstone]

Thanks for that mate, really good and interesting post. Seems to be the majority of the teams you have mentioned above keep that philosophy going through to the first team, Accies, Dundee Utd and Killie especially. (not so much this season to be fair to killie)

Must be really disheartening for the younger lads coming up against these bigger boys and losing heavily - just hope they can see that in the longer term the way our youth system is works will make them better footballers.

I guess a good example would be Reynolds vs Kenneth at Utd..both centre halves, both came through the respective youth systems, one a damn good footballer and one a big physical brute taught to heed the baw..and even a that hes not very good.

 

To be fair on the Accies when they had McArthy, McCarthur, Easton and a fully fit Neill they were a very good passing side. I think they don't have those players anymore so have resorted to lumping it up the park.

[weeyin]

Must be really disheartening for the younger lads coming up against these bigger boys and losing heavily - just hope they can see that in the longer term the way our youth system is works will make them better footballers.

That's one of the reasons some of the more progressive countries ignore competitive games for their youngsters and focus instead on developing skills.

[mwellhighland]

Best thread I've read in a while

[Kmcalpin]

I guess a good example would be Reynolds vs Kenneth at Utd..both centre halves, both came through the respective youth systems, one a damn good footballer and one a big physical brute taught to heed the baw..and even a that hes not very good.

 

Some good points being made here. In youth football its all too easy to be influenced by size and brute strength. It takes a good scout to pick out talent. That said, to get to the top it usually takes a combination of size, brute strength and talent. I've said this before, but Premiership players tend (and of course there are always exceptions) to be far bigger and stronger than our own lads. The EPL is a very physical league. I know that scouts of top clubs consciously look out for big lads with talent.

 

One of the main reasons Mark Reynolds has not yet moved south is his lack of physique and clubs have been honest about that. By comparison, a leviathan like Gary Kenneth will always attract attention - wrong I know but thats football.

 

I was shocked at Faddy's appearance just months after he moved to Everton. He must have been "forced" or "encouraged" to put on about another stone of beef. If he hadn't done that he would never have competed in the EPL. Part of that may just have down to natural development but most of it was down to the gym.