Playoffs

[el-pidge]

I wouldn't want to complicate things but how about the team that come first in the league get the first CL place then the team that wins the play-off gets the second. Then the other two teams in the play-off get EL spots?

 

Then if the team that is 1st in the league wins the play-off wins, the other finalist gets the CL spot, just like the Scottish cup (As happened with QoS)

 

Why involve the league winner in a play off at all? Other problems I can imagine would surround the amount of EL places up for grabs each year, is that number not going down again soon?

 

What might be interesting is a top 2 play-off along with a europa league play off, just to determine the level at which each team would enter their rightfully earnt competitions. That way there is almost guaranteed an old firm finale to every season which I'm sure would go down well and keep TV interested

[jamesc]

I like the idea. It means games will mean everything from the first game of the season,right to the final day. Not as it is no where more or less, 6th,7th,8th,9th, on occasion 5th and 11th,have zip to play for but pride after the split,which clearly fans arent interested in seeing,especially going with the average attendances over the season. Also the 4 or 5 play off games is another incentive to get to hampden and get more tv money in. Shave another couple of quid on ticket prices and I think attendances will start to rise slowly but surely. Rangers and Celtic arent even selling out a home game these days. I think it can only be a good thing for scottish football,gives fans and the press more games to be interested in. I think its got too a point with scottish football where it has no option to change,whether its this, or a 16 team `Scottish Premiership`. Not heard what clubs are supporting it or not, but I would suspect the OF are none too happy about this proposal, if that is the case then it has a very small chance of happening which is a shame,because I think it would be excellent.

[claretband]

To those in favour of the playoffs - and who think it "fair" - how so when one team's possibly large advantage built up over a whole season can be overturned in a couple of games?

 

Everyone knowing the rules at the start doesn't necessarily make it fair. Also why not have a title playoff too - the flawed logic behind the playoff system would produce just as exciting games in that scenario. What's the difference?

[Brazilian]

you got blinkers on claretband?

 

current system is unfair, split grossly unfair on all counts, teams can be sparated by one point at split having played an inbalance of home away games, lower placed team loses out on income and potenial league/euro placings hell even the higher placed team can get screwed over in match scheduling as we did last season

 

League championship cannot be classed as fair as on a basic level the 1st and 2nd teams havent even played the same fixtures over a season, in fact its completely random if you believe in the old SPL computer theory, so play offs are no worse than what is regarding sporting integrity and fairness

 

I said I would only support play offs if they were laid down in advance and all was fair and balanced going into them

 

teams then know what to aim for, large points advantage is not the aim, brings in many many permutations over the season that need to be managed by each club.

 

meaningful games with competition is the only way pro football in Scotland will survive ( along with many other changes required) but without meaningful games and whole season competition there will be not enough commercial money to retain what we have , as gate income is drying up as the years go on, and more and more fans are staying away no matter what happens

[Me Bungo Pony]

Here's format that includes a play off for the Championship I worked out a few years ago ('cause I'm sad like that ).

 

(1) A split of 14-10-?? (depending on teams in SFL).

 

(2) The "SPL" play each other twice to determine placings. Top 4 play off for the title, playing each other a further twice, starting with 6-4-2-0 bonus points depending on whether they finished 1st-2nd-3rd-4th.

 

(3) The second tier play each other 4 times to decide the top 2.

 

(4) a. The remaining 10 "SPL" clubs are joined by the top 2 from the second tier to form 2 seeded groups of 6, each team to play the other teams in their group once to decide relegation.

b. Top seed (5th or 6th in "SPL")would have 5 home games. Bottom seed (13th or 14th in "SPL") would have no home games. The second tier teams would therefore have 1 home game against bottom seed. All gate receipts to be shared.

c. Bottom seed and second tier team would start with 0pts. Others in group would start with their "regular season" points haul minus the bottom seeds "regular season" haul. This stops teams being sucked down to the bottom seed's level arbitrarily.

d. All teams start with their "regular season" goal difference. This should give the second tier team another advantage over the bottom seed.

e. Bottom team in each group to be relegated/fail to be promoted while the top team in each group plays for a "Trophy".

 

(5) Rest of SFL play in a group style "Spring Cup" affair.

 

All this could give an exciting end of season scenario such as I have outlined below:

 

Week 30

Last game of "Regular Season"

 

Week 31

Scot Cup: QF

 

Week 32

Champ: Gm 1 Pr/Re: Gm 1

 

Week 33

Champ: Gm 2 Pr/Re: Gm 2

 

Week 34

Champ: Gm 3 Pr/Re: Gm 3

 

Week 35

Scot Cup: SF

 

Week 36

Champ: Gm 4 Pr/Re: Gm 4

 

Week 37

Champ: Gm 5 Pr/Re: Gm 5

 

Week 38

Champ: Gm 6 Pr/Re: "Trophy" Final

 

Week 39

Scot Cup: Final

 

I would imagine the broadcasters would be very interested in an exciting end of season like that, especially as it still pretty well ensures 4 OF games. Fans should like it as it gives their team more of a chance of winning the title and keeping most of them in with a shout for the bulk of the season. The only people who would be howling about it are those of an OF frame of mind. Ultimately, "fairness" should always come a poor 3rd to excitement and competition ... IMO .

[Martin]

Nice system Pony! Possibly a wee bit complicated? And I feel possibly just a touch too innovative/imaginative for the authorities to consider. Particularly like the top 4 play off for the championship bit, with the 6-4-2-0 points thing. -A lot more fair than just a simple play off. Get it sent off to Hampden!! ..or wherever they discuss these things.

[el-pidge]

Interesting is all I can say Pony, but I think broadcasters would be more interested in meaningful or high profile games throughout the season as opposed to one big orgasm of exciting football at the end. They don't have the schedule space for it. They wouldn't do such a thing to the Premiership, they far less likely to here.

[claretband]

I never said the current system was fair - meant this thread only to be concerned with the pros & cons of playoffs.

 

ok here's a scenario:-

 

Let's assume the playoff system(for European places) had been in place in season 2007/08.

 

We finished with 60 points and would have had to play Hibs, in 6th with 52 points.

 

We play them at home first & record a 2-1 win. The return is tied at 0-0 until the 90th. minute when Colin Nish takes an outrageous dive in the box & wins a penalty. It's converted & Hibs take the Europa League place.

 

Would the pro-playoff brigade be happy then?

[Martin]

I never said the current system was fair - meant this thread only to be concerned with the pros & cons of playoffs.

 

ok here's a scenario:-

 

Let's assume the playoff system(for European places) had been in place in season 2007/08.

 

We finished with 60 points and would have had to play Hibs, in 6th with 52 points.

 

We play them at home first & record a 2-1 win. The return is tied at 0-0 until the 90th. minute when Colin Nish takes an outrageous dive in the box & wins a penalty. It's converted & Hibs take the Europa League place.

 

Would the pro-playoff brigade be happy then?

Scottish football collapses on it's arse. Would the anti play off brigade be happy then?

[El Grew]

Scottish football collapses on it's arse. Would the anti play off brigade be happy then?

 

Collapses!!??? It collapsed a long time ago. It will take more than gimmickry to get it up again.

[underboyleheating]

The SPL flatlined years ago. It will take more than playoffs to revive it.

[Martin]

Sorry should have said more along the lines of 'completely desintegrates into oblivion'!

And of course playoffs alone won't revive scottish football, but I believe they could be part of the formula, needless to say, along with a load of other things. And I honestly think they'll go a lot more towards diggin football out the hole than changing the number of teams in the league!

[Martin]

Plus, surely you can't call something like Me Bungo Pony's scheme 'gimmickry' Tis quite a major overhaul!

[Ian-in-Oz]

Easy for people on here to back a play off scheme because we are never going to be in a position where we are winning the league just for one of the mould firm to beat us in a play off & take the championship. For us it's a win win but for the mould firm it's a lose lose so they are never ever going to back it. As an 11-1 swing is needed to bring it in then it's never going to happen.

I think the English Championship has the right idea where the league winners win the championship & other teams have a play off to decide promotion. Only here the play off would be to decide who gets into Europe and who doesn't. But again this could mean the possibility of one of the mould firm missing out on the Champions League/ Europa so therefore never gonna happen.

[Me Bungo Pony]

Interesting is all I can say Pony, but I think broadcasters would be more interested in meaningful or high profile games throughout the season as opposed to one big orgasm of exciting football at the end. They don't have the schedule space for it. They wouldn't do such a thing to the Premiership, they far less likely to here.

I think if you offered Sky/ESPN the chance of a 12 game spectacular at the end of the season involving Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool they would have your hand off before you knew it . And I wouldn't write it off as something that could never happen in England. The Premiership was pretty much as stale as the SPL until Man City and Spurs got some money behind them. Arsenal, Man Utd and Chelsea have had the title sewn up between them for nigh on 20 years and attendances are falling among the "spear-carriers" of the division. Sunderland used to get 50,000 a game. Recently they have been lucky to get 30,000 and it is a similar story for many other clubs. There may be a clamour for more competition there soon as well .... maybe .

 

With regard to your point about broadcasters being "more interested in meaningful or high profile games throughout the season as opposed to one big orgasm of exciting football at the end"; the whole point about play-offs is that there would be a lot more meaningful games throughout the season involving many teams, vying for the top four slots, which would then culminate in an exciting tourney at the end. Going by previous seasons and the ups and downs of form, I would estimate that over half the teams in a 16 team division would still be in with a reasonable shout at a play-off spot at New Year and therefore a shot at the Championship. As opposed to only the OF in the current set-up if you're lucky. And sometimes the title is all sewn up bar the shouting by then. That may be "fair" but it is not even remotely exciting and leads to virtually all but relegation battles being meaningless for almost the entire season. That is killing the game.

 

Calling play-offs "gimmickry" just undermines the concept without actually addressing the issues it raises. Like instantly going for the "conspiracy" or "racist" word when some-one raises an uncomfortable issue concerning politics. I haven't heard a reasoned argument against play-offs yet bar the "fairness" one. But football is a sport not an examination. It's about entertainment not statistical correctness. Americans, Australians and even other sports in Europe realise this and wouldn't even countenance a set-up such as we have in Scotland. If the NFL, NBA or Aussie Rules were to bin their play-offs and instigate a "fairer" play-everyone-home-and-away system, the stands would empty and broadcast money dry up. Play-offs are not a "gimmick". It is a tried and tested system that works all over the world, increasing competition, excitement and season-long meaningful fixtures that interests broadcasters greatly.

 

Nice system Pony! Possibly a wee bit complicated? And I feel possibly just a touch too innovative/imaginative for the authorities to consider.

Thanks Martin. The promotion/relegation bit is a bit difficult to describe but is a relatively simple concept once you get past the words . I came up with this years ago when it was still a 40 team league which is why I went with a 14-10-16 split. The promotion/relegation bit becomes simpler with a 16-10-16 split with the 42 team league we currently have. It would just mean 2 teams being automatically promoted while the 2 relegation groups would consist solely of SPL teams with 2 being relegated. The second tier would not then have to fit in 36 games when the SPL only had to play 26 .

 

With a 16 team SPL with play-offs, teams would get 36 games (30 regular season + 6 play-off) for the top 4 and 35/6 games (30 regular season + 5/6 play-off) for the remaining 12. With the stale, mind numbingly boring and retrograde 10 team SPL option being touted by Doncaster/McLeish, teams would also have 36 games. So there is no real difference there.

 

Its all about thinking outside the box and that is one thing the SPL and OF can never be accused of. Hopefully the rather large number of SPL clubs backing play-offs may be able to force the issue . I'm not expecting it though.

[Me Bungo Pony]

As an 11-1 swing is needed to bring it in then it's never going to happen.

I thought it was a 10-2 vote nowadays. If so, the OF can bleat and moan all they like. If the other 10 want it they'll just have to lump it. Or go join one of the leagues that they are always threatening to go to ... but who don't want them .