Brazilian Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 I'm a kind of glass half empty sort of guy most of the time , well it seems that way on here anyhow, maybe its just the footie thats puts me on a downer This debacle ( what else is expected from Scottish Football) does worry me more than even the normal shambles, particularly our very own MFC's involvement in it all. I've intimated before and will re-itterate that Motherwell are heading further and further away from being a 'club' than ever before imho, everything is back to business, business , business and helping drive forward a proposal that the vast majority of fans seem to oppose does nothing to change my opinion. Sticking the words 'community club' on letterheads doesnt do it for me , when behind closed doors decisions like this are being discussed, although maybe it was a masterstroke dropping the words 'premier club' that it replaced Seems to me that after a few years after the last changes at the top up by', some have forgotten the very essence of the game that they recognised after arriving from other business markets Afternoon Folks, this has been an interesting topic so far and please continue to add your views. Someone recently (and before you speculate - it wasn't anyone at the club) said the following to me: "Don't bother spending time on your hard core supportes - they will stick with you whatever" It not only surprised me but importantly it got me thinking about what they had said. To me it smacked of a different era and an arrogance of certainty that no matter what clubs do, fans will pitch up. Well as evidence suggests otherwise and not only in our figures but in football and sports as a whole, it is just not true. I want us all at the club to engage our fans, importantly involve you in decisions that affect you and for us all, fans, employees and directors alike to be custodians Now onto how we involve you and I don't have a pre determined view on how we do that so hence the initial post. I don't want to just try and create another body / committee and I see the absolute value in the Trust and Supporters Association working in partnership. I have been researching and talking to other clubs to see what they do on this front and so far at least, Norwich City have what I think is the best example of where we might end up. Nothing hard and fast but I think this would be a great start. http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/SCG/ I await the incoming! Leeann This isnt aimed as an attack on Leeann more as a reminder that , there was once great hope placed on her and the focus of the club again seemed to be heading back to where it always needs to be. It could easily have been quotes from Mr Boyle or previous chief exec's regarding how the fans were going to be the main concern as they were being recognised as the lifeblood of the club, but this one was the first quote I found in the proposed Supporters Advisory commitee thread I digress from the subject matter A ten team SPL will be the end for me as a semi regular matchday punter, I'm already drifting away fast for various reasons as discussed elsewhere, increasing the frequency I see the same teams and reducing the variety, whilst leaving the prices high or probably increasing them further guarantees I'll spend even less time at matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Obviously discussions such as this are taken so far above my level I have no input and as such, as a club employee, I am not too sure it would be appropriate for me to comment on it from a personal point of view. One thing though, purely from an interest point of view and this is 100% purely hypothetical. Neil Doncaster stated tonight that a move to a trimmed 10-team league would generate more money from TV Broadcasters. Now, if that money was used to reduce the cost of admission to games, would that change this debate any? Just out of interest... Not for me. Don't get me wrong, if I end up going to Blantyre Vics games instead of 'Well matches because of this 10 team league then I'd still end up attending the odd Motherwell game (probably cup games etc). Reduced admission cost might mean I attend one or two extra of these. But ultimately it wouldn't have a great bearing on my point of view regarding this - because basically it would just be a bribe. The admission price is just one factor in the large abortion that is Scottish football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welldaft Mk1 Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 I have been moaning about a 10 team league and I can say without any doubt that I wouldn't be moaning about "the pish being served up on the park" if clubs lost £1,000,000. Some of the most exciting football matches I've ever seen have been lower league, junior or even amateur level. Folk need to get their head around the idea that two teams having a lesser standard of player doesn't automatically mean the game is going to be less entertaining. Unfortunately I am old enough to remember watching Motherwell in the 1st Division and it blows your argument out of the water. I watched as Mothewell players passed the ball out the park and could not string 2 passes together. You may argue what is the difference between then and now But in all seriousness we had a lesser standard of player then and the product on the pitch was GUFF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 'Flow Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 But ultimately it wouldn't have a great bearing on my point of view regarding this - because basically it would just be a bribe. It's not a 'bribe', it's a model currently adopted on the continent (particularly in Germany) where clubs offset money from their TV deal (granted, much larger deals than we have with Sky/ESPN) to keep costs of attending down. Net result = massive crowds, even taking into account the larger country size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 The admission price is just one factor in the large abortion that is Scottish football. Another major annoyance of mine on this. I genuinely don't understand why the league structure is somehow the most pressing issue in Scottish football, its mental. How about sorting out the fact that three different bodies run the game in one country. That there seems to be no accountability for any decisions made. The fact that this all came around in the aftermath of the absolute sham that was the referees strike. That the youth structure in the country has gone completely mental. The utterly barking situation of Clyde moving from a brand new (more or less) stadium that they don't own. Over-zealous stewarding aroudn the country. People making it more awkward for people getting to games. Fans utterly ignored And yet, in the midst of this, we've got the most talented group of young players plying their trade around the UK that I can remember. Clubs living within their means, sorting out debts, playing football and clubs sorting out proper training facilities and Not bad for a 'crisis'. Yet this is a big issue. Changing to a stifling ten team league that put us here in the first place. A league structure that promotes the same hammer-thrower youth development that we've been told so many times over the past couple of years, is killing the game. A youth development that once again, leads us to another Berti situation where we scrape the barrel for someone, anyone who is faintly Scottish. Why? Why are we saddling up and riding towards this? This is absolutely mental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Unfortunately I am old enough to remember watching Motherwell in the 1st Division and it blows your argument out of the water. Well no, given I've already said that some of the most exciting football matches I've seen have been in the lower leagues, juniors or even amateurs then I don't possibly how you not enjoying Motherwell in the 1st division remotely blows my argument out of the water. It's not a 'bribe', it's a model currently adopted on the continent (particularly in Germany) where clubs offset money from their TV deal to keep costs of attending down. Net result = massive crowds (even given the larger country size). Oh aye, I understand that. I just meant that if it was now introduced I would perceive it to be a direct reaction to how the fans have reacted to this, rather than some sort of pre-conceived revolutionary plan. Incidentally, I don't think it would have a particularly worthwhile effect on crowds anyway. You can reduce admission costs, but Motherwell's still going to be full of gloryhunters and bigots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Obviously discussions such as this are taken so far above my level I have no input and as such, as a club employee, I am not too sure it would be appropriate for me to comment on it from a personal point of view. One thing though, purely from an interest point of view and this is 100% purely hypothetical. Neil Doncaster stated tonight that a move to a trimmed 10-team league would generate more money from TV Broadcasters. Now, if that money was used to reduce the cost of admission to games, would that change this debate any? Just out of interest... Personally - the repetetive nature of playing each other 4 times is the biggest factor (6 if it's Dundee Utd obviously). Barring disasters I've got next seasons ST money sorted - I'm fortunate in that, I know, it's important but it's not the over-riding factor for me. I could probably stomach another couple of seasons at current prices if the SPL attempted something to improve entertainment. I think as we seen with Nancy - TV money subsidising gate prices is great. and it's something we should at least be aspiring to. I remember the 10 team league and it was the biggest pile of fear filled dross going. Fear does not equal excitement or entertainment. It's the exact opposite. While we're on TV - we need to move away from the 'old firm on their travels information service'. Pick the best game on the card. Let clubs fill their stadium with their own fans when the OF are in town. TV coverage for me is the biggest factor in our poor attendances vs those lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Another major annoyance of mine on this. I genuinely don't understand why the league structure is somehow the most pressing issue in Scottish football, its mental. How about sorting out the fact that three different bodies run the game in one country. That there seems to be no accountability for any decisions made. The fact that this all came around in the aftermath of the absolute sham that was the referees strike. That the youth structure in the country has gone completely mental. The utterly barking situation of Clyde moving from a brand new (more or less) stadium that they don't own. Over-zealous stewarding aroudn the country. People making it more awkward for people getting to games. Fans utterly ignored And yet, in the midst of this, we've got the most talented group of young players plying their trade around the UK that I can remember. Clubs living within their means, sorting out debts, playing football and clubs sorting out proper training facilities and Not bad for a 'crisis'. Yet this is a big issue. Changing to a stifling ten team league that put us here in the first place. A league structure that promotes the same hammer-thrower youth development that we've been told so many times over the past couple of years, is killing the game. A youth development that once again, leads us to another Berti situation where we scrape the barrel for someone, anyone who is faintly Scottish. Why? Why are we saddling up and riding towards this? This is absolutely mental. Best post so far IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Obviously discussions such as this are taken so far above my level I have no input and as such, as a club employee, I am not too sure it would be appropriate for me to comment on it from a personal point of view. One thing though, purely from an interest point of view and this is 100% purely hypothetical. Neil Doncaster stated tonight that a move to a trimmed 10-team league would generate more money from TV Broadcasters. Now, if that money was used to reduce the cost of admission to games (i.e. the German model), would that change this debate any? Just out of interest... Flow, That would be a good place to start but a 10 team league led to the stagnation and eventual downfall of Scottish football. A bigger league would lead to a lot of meaningless games but these games would allow teams to blood their youngsters just as they did pre Premier League and they could be played in front of reasonable crowds if the prices were reduced to suit. I don't think this would be an immediate fix but if allowed to continue for a period of time then it might work. If only one out of 16 teams was definitely relegated and another 2? had to be involved in playoffs with 2 from the lower division it would allow more teams a bit of stability to blood their young talent and hopefully lead to the development of a better standard of football in this country. This I must add is only my opinion but the game in the 60's was reasonably competitive even although the OF still dominated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilian Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Obviously discussions such as this are taken so far above my level I have no input and as such, as a club employee, I am not too sure it would be appropriate for me to comment on it from a personal point of view. One thing though, purely from an interest point of view and this is 100% purely hypothetical. Neil Doncaster stated tonight that a move to a trimmed 10-team league would generate more money from TV Broadcasters. Now, if that money was used to reduce the cost of admission to games (i.e. the German model), would that change this debate any? Just out of interest... Understanding your position and choice not to comment , but its interesting link that some back peddling and potential added benefits appear to be getting rolled out in the face of overwhelming opposition to the proposal. I cant see why there would be more TV money, for reduced fanbase/audience, but even if this magical money pot was to re-appear I have no dount it would be squandered once again and would not reduce the gate price significantly but of more a concern is that , it overlooks the fact that fans dont want less teams and if/when a team is relegated and loses its share in this magical pot of gold then they are well and truly screwed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star sail Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Obviously discussions such as this are taken so far above my level I have no input and as such, as a club employee, I am not too sure it would be appropriate for me to comment on it from a personal point of view. One thing though, purely from an interest point of view and this is 100% purely hypothetical. Neil Doncaster stated tonight that a move to a trimmed 10-team league would generate more money from TV Broadcasters. Now, if that money was used to reduce the cost of admission to games (i.e. the German model), would that change this debate any? Just out of interest... It would be one positive but the problem runs far deeper than admission fees. If Motherwell were challenging to win the SPL (or even had a chance of challenging) I personally would pay £20/£22 every week. If I was paying £10 to watch Motherwell fight it out with QOS, Morton etc in SPL 2 I probably would not go. The problem is that Motherwell and every other team outwith the OF exist in a league that they will never win and will never be competitive in untill steps are taken to level the playing field. You have a thankless task Flow (or at least MFC) and a problem that is almost unsolvable. Martin Bain, John Reid and all those characters need to do some major long term thinking and far less navel gazing if we are to get out of this mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me Bungo Pony Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Unfortunately I am old enough to remember watching Motherwell in the 1st Division and it blows your argument out of the water. I watched as Mothewell players passed the ball out the park and could not string 2 passes together. You may argue what is the difference between then and now But in all seriousness we had a lesser standard of player then and the product on the pitch was GUFF. The standard all over the world is better now but there are still bad games and bad teams. I have no doubt that the OF and any club that is lucky enough to remain in SPL1 for a sustained period will benefit financially from this proposal (everyone else will suffer badly) but that will not guarentee entertainment. Some of the worst games I have watched from England recently involved the big six .... they cancelled each other out. Some of the best games involved lesser opposition against a top team. A 16 team league wouldn't guarentee entertaining football but we all know a 10 team division definitely wont .... because we've been there before . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 It's not a 'bribe', it's a model currently adopted on the continent (particularly in Germany) where clubs offset money from their TV deal (granted, much larger deals than we have with Sky/ESPN) to keep costs of attending down. Net result = massive crowds, even taking into account the larger country size. Like I said in an earlier post (don't remember if it was this thread or the other) The communication / lack of consultation on this has been criminal. If this was part of the original proposal thay should get shot for not communicating it as part of the package. If it wasn't it'll be viewed rightly or wrongly as a bribe put in place to try and buy off the revolting peasants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 'Flow Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Understanding your position and choice not to comment , but its interesting link that some back peddling and potential added benefits appear to be getting rolled out in the face of overwhelming opposition to the proposal. You are far too cynical big man... It's not being 'rolled out' - I was merely trying to ascertain, from a personal point of view, whether actual league structure was the 'big' issue here or, as thisGRAEME states, other issues are at play (and we all know admission price is by far the biggest gripe I hear with regards to Scottish Football). That's why I was making the link - I've not been 'sent out' to try and garner support, purely dipping the toe in the water as it (size of the league) appears to be a massive reaction when, until now, it's a fairly low-key point on the list of fans' moans and groans in recent times. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilian Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 You are far too cynical big man... It has been mentioned PS I didn't mean getting rolled out by your good self, but by the proposers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian-in-Oz Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Obviously discussions such as this are taken so far above my level I have no input and as such, as a club employee, I am not too sure it would be appropriate for me to comment on it from a personal point of view. One thing though, purely from an interest point of view and this is 100% purely hypothetical. Neil Doncaster stated tonight that a move to a trimmed 10-team league would generate more money from TV Broadcasters. Now, if that money was used to reduce the cost of admission to games (i.e. the German model), would that change this debate any? Just out of interest... Not quite sure how this would reduce gate money. Bearing in mind the OF take more than the lions share of tv money & throw crumbs to the peasants doesn't that mean it might reduce gate money for the OF & everyone else will have to charge the same as now or increase fees to make up for lost supporters. But anyway if 3 or 4 teams are against the 10 team proposal and it needs an 11/1 swing then isn't it already dead in the water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 'Flow Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 If this was part of the original proposal thay should get shot for not communicating it as part of the package. If it wasn't it'll be viewed rightly or wrongly as a bribe put in place to try and buy off the revolting peasants Read my post - I have no idea if it's on the agenda. It was a purely hypothetical question based around trying to ascertain what the real issue was (if, indeed, it's any one thing). I'm not giving any steer as to what the SPL may do next, purely opening up the debate further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Neil Doncaster stated tonight that a move to a trimmed 10-team league would generate more money from TV Broadcasters. Now, if that money was used to reduce the cost of admission to games (i.e. the German model), would that change this debate any? Just out of interest... Sorry, but that just sounds like a hollow promise of a politician in the run up to an election. That's such an easy comment to make, as is "you'll lose £1m in a 16-team league". How the hell, with the standard of Scottish football as it is at the moment, will Sky suddenly say "we'll double your money if you chop two teams out of your league"? Even if the TV money IS larger in a 10-team league, the difference will not be significant enough for teams to reduce ticket prices enough to entice fans back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Kerse Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 I know not the solution, but if expanding to a 16 or 18 team league loses the club £1m in revenue I would put my hoose on the people on here moaning about a 10 team league moaning about the pish being served up on the park. Because we are playing 14th v 16th in April in front of crowds of 3000 but with an even poorer 1st 11 because we cannot afford decent playing squad. The majority on here are deluding themselves if they think crowds will increase just becuase we only play Raith 2 times a season. Perhaps not but it is worth a go. Crowds at the moment are dropping like a stone. If we go to a 10 team league many of us have already said we are out for good. Think of the knock on effect of that, friends, families future generations all as a result not going to the football. The game is over in a 10 team league. Boring, repetitive, Old Firm winning everything. If a 16 team league offers even a 10% chance of bringing more title challengers, more expressive and attacking teams and more fans in as a result then it is a chance worth taking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me Bungo Pony Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Perhaps not but it is worth a go. Crowds at the moment are dropping like a stone. If we go to a 10 team league many of us have already said we are out for good. Think of the knock on effect of that, friends, families future generations all as a result not going to the football. The game is over in a 10 team league. Boring, repetitive, Old Firm winning everything. If a 16 team league offers even a 10% chance of bringing more title challengers, more expressive and attacking teams and more fans in as a result then it is a chance worth taking. Exactly . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmfc Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 I'd be interested to know why Neil Doncaster thinks we'll generate much more TV money by going to a 10 team league. I honestly can't fathom why this would convince broadcasters (Sky!) to pay more money for less games than compared to now. We're basically desperate for a TV deal so broadcasters aren't going to spend fortunes on a product that is the same as now. As for reducing the admission price to matches (if we did somehow conjure up more TV money) they'd only reduce it by a couple of quid max, i.e. £20 instead of £22. They ain't going to reduce it down to £10 (for adults) and £5 (for concessions)! Jay's first post sums up exactly how I feel also. Been a season ticket holder at Fir Park for 25 years now and if they go with a 10 team league, that's it, I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modernist Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Read my post - I have no idea if it's on the agenda. I'm sure you do Flowrence........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 'Flow Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Not quite sure how this would reduce gate money. Based on the theory that, say, Motherwell makes 1 million from TV money from the current deal. If that was to raise to, say, 2 million (and these figures are totally made up) by increased TV revenue and that money then offsets the cost of admission to your average punter. This is what they do in Germany and France (albeit, as I've said, they are dealing in much bigger numbers. Nancy's TV income was something like 35 million EURO or something like that). Again, this is all 100% purely hypothetical posted to open up the debate and not some sort of teaser. The McLeish report contained a great deal of recommendations (more than just the size of the league) which is included admission pricing, when we play our football etc etc. Just interested to see, as I've said, whether the size of the league is the main issue or, most likely, one of a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinnae-punt-it Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Obviously discussions such as this are taken so far above my level I have no input and as such, as a club employee, I am not too sure it would be appropriate for me to comment on it from a personal point of view. One thing though, purely from an interest point of view and this is 100% purely hypothetical. Neil Doncaster stated tonight that a move to a trimmed 10-team league would generate more money from TV Broadcasters. Now, if that money was used to reduce the cost of admission to games (i.e. the German model), would that change this debate any? Just out of interest... Hi Flow, The cost of a match is only one aspect that needs addressed. In my opinion the 10 team format is fatally flawed from an entertainment perspective. It only breeds fear, and teams shut up shop, desperate not to lose, hoping to nick a goal to win the game. It's dire to watch. It was tdire under it's previous formats and it will be again. I think all the clubs need to find a solution that ticks more boxes than just increased TV money. I think the whole supporting community is adamant that a 10 team league simply isn't what we want. - The 11/1 voting structure needs to be changed. - The distribution of wealth needs to be equal. - The number of games versus the same opposition needs to be reduced. - The number of governing bodies needs to be reduced and centralised - A play-off system for relegation should be introduced. - Increased playing facilities are required at grass roots level. - Improved coaching required at grass roots level similar to Holland. - The cost of football to the average fan needs to be addressed. Should be comparable to going to the cinema, with price dependant on the quality of the seat. - The amount of games televised needs to be reduced to boost attendances (Never going to happen I know) - Improved highlights package at a time when children can watch it. - A wage cap system introduced - Squad size & nationality limited, in a similar fashion to the EPL. - Power moved away from the players back to the clubs. - Positive promotion of the league from the media is required, rather than the constant bashing that currently goes on. If they hate it so much what do they think will fix it? Positive critismim, rather than just 'It's rubbish'. Lots of the games in the EPL are crap to watch, but all we ever hear is that their league is the best in the world. Pundits are talking themselves out of a job, constantly berating the SPL product. - Plan for longer term improvement rather than short term gain. - Listen to the consumer. - Communicate with the consumer. - Improve the standard of refereeing I could go on all night! Some are more realistic than others, but it is infinately more complex than just the cost of football. The product must be improved as a whole. Failure to improve the product will result in further decline, and ultimately the death of Scottish football. I compare it to the British Car Industry. They refused to modernise and improve their product resulting in them no longer being in existance. Scottish football will go the same way unless the powers that be start prioritising the quality of the product, by puting the consumer at the forefront! Scottish football needs Government level intervention to save it. Take the decision out of the hands of the clubs, as they only have self preservation at heart, not the betterment of Scottish Football. Rant over! Phew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East_Stand_Al Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 It's not a 'bribe', it's a model currently adopted on the continent (particularly in Germany) where clubs offset money from their TV deal (granted, much larger deals than we have with Sky/ESPN) to keep costs of attending down. Net result = massive crowds, even taking into account the larger country size. Devils Advocate Flow ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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