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Dundee United (a) - 12/01/11


steelboy
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a disapointing night. a left sided midfielder is a must, we changed the shape of the team from saturday to accomodate forbes and we looked lost for the first 20 minutes. i thought we came back into a bit more after that and were at least competitive until russell scored. we constantly allowed united to bring the ball out from the back and put us under pressure, not a good night for mccall.

 

the players were under clear instructions to keep the ball on the deck and randolph rolled it out short more last night than he has all season. it was probably a plan to stop kenneth from dominating too much in the air but it didn't really work as we were never managed to get any sustained pressure in the final third. it actually wasn't too unlike the game up there under gannon where we had five in midfield and created no chances but the breaks went against us rather than for us.

 

sutton cannot play as a lone striker. he was almost as ineffectual last night as he was in nancy. casagolda actually looked better suited for playing there.

 

forbes made some decent passes but in a lot of ways is a man down. in the second half he completely unravelled and every time he got the ball the united midfield expected him to give it away.

 

if we had anyone to come in i'd say it was time for humphrey to get a rest. that seems unlikely just now so he needs some serious coaching on his movement off the ball. last night he did nothing to support sutton and made it very easy for dixon to cover him when hateley had the ball.

 

the highlights aren't up on the beeb website yet but it'll be interesting to see if our chance at the end crossed the line.

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a disapointing night. a left sided midfielder is a must, we changed the shape of the team from saturday to accomodate forbes and we looked lost for the first 20 minutes. i thought we came back into a bit more after that and were at least competitive until russell scored. we constantly allowed united to bring the ball out from the back and put us under pressure, not a good night for mccall.

 

the players were under clear instructions to keep the ball on the deck and randolph rolled it out short more last night than he has all season. it was probably a plan to stop kenneth from dominating too much in the air but it didn't really work as we were never managed to get any sustained pressure in the final third. it actually wasn't too unlike the game up there under gannon where we had five in midfield and created no chances but the breaks went against us rather than for us.

 

sutton cannot play as a lone striker. he was almost as ineffectual last night as he was in nancy. casagolda actually looked better suited for playing there.

 

forbes made some decent passes but in a lot of ways is a man down. in the second half he completely unravelled and every time he got the ball the united midfield expected him to give it away.

 

if we had anyone to come in i'd say it was time for humphrey to get a rest. that seems unlikely just now so he needs some serious coaching on his movement off the ball. last night he did nothing to support sutton and made it very easy for dixon to cover him when hateley had the ball.

 

the highlights aren't up on the beeb website yet but it'll be interesting to see if our chance at the end crossed the line.

 

 

I know there's a thread on it probably steelboy, but what would you change for ICT?

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sign some players, unless we get some new faces there's not much that can be done.

 

sutton and murphy up front as a pair is a must. then you've got to solve the left mid problem which is pretty much down to pollock or forbes. i'd be tempted to go with pollock and give him a chance to get on the ball and link with hammell and murphy. if it doesn't work you can always bring forbes on at half time, he's only (kinda) good for 45 minutes anyway.

 

it's a totally different game on saturday anyway. we'll have plenty of possesion and territory, it'll be down to whether or not we can create and take chances (and that doesn't mean just giving the ball to murph and expecting him to make something happen)

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Ross Forbes reminds me so much of Charlie Adam when he was at Rangers! So many Rangers fans said he was too slow, to heavy, not athletic enough! Good with the ball at his feet but didn't work up and down enough! Was totally anonymous when played WIDE on the Left but was a good central midfielder when given the chance! Sound familiar!

 

Took such a knock in confidence that he played with his head down all the time! Look at him now and for the past year! Got a run in centre mid at Blackpool, fans loved him so his confidence went up and now he is subject to £3.5m bids! I saw Adam a few times at FP and you could tell he was relatively decent but if you had asked me if he was going to be quoted as one of the best players in the EPL I would have laughed in your face!!!!

 

Ross Forbes needs a run in his favoured position with thebacking of the fans and I'm sure he would deliver! but I'm afraid that ain't going to happen.

 

P.s before anyone comes back withusual push about me thinking Forbes is a £3.5m player then I'm not it is just a comparison!

 

Nail hit on the head there for me. Our support (or certainly a percentage of those who post on here) must be the one of the hardest to please ever. In Ross Forbes, we have a fine footballer with a great left foot and a terrific eye for a pass- attributes definitely suited to a central midfielder. But the high expectations of our fans expect him to be a world beater in all eleven positions.

 

Lately on here we've seen people moan right, left and centre about the standard of Scottish Football. Part of the issue with the standard of Scottish Football in my opinion is that athleticism is often rated more highly than ability. Then we get a player who has ability and we shun him to a position that someone more "athletic" may be better suited to.

 

Do you think Southampton complained that Matt Le Tissier wasn't much of an athlete? No, they used them to the best of his ability, where he was most suited to play. If we just did the same for Ross Forbes we could get the best out of him. As Cloudy pointed out on a previous thread, you wouldn't catch Barcelona playing Xavi left midfield. A far smaller scale, but the same idea.

 

It is similar to Charlie Adam if you ask me, obviously again on a far smaller scale, but Adam was wasted in the role Rangers played him in, which led to him being criticised- but then he goes to a team who actually play him in a position that brings out the best in his ability and he shines.

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Maybe Forbes would be better suited to another (slower) league because you can have all the ability needed for this league but if you are visibly toiling after 10 minutes, unable to run with the ball due to lack of pace/speed, and look to get rid of he ball asap because of this weakness, even at times putting your defense under pressure, you aren't going to cut it.

 

IF the lad's main weaknesses (fitness/speed) could be worked on I would say stick with him as he has the foundations of a decent player. The fact he IS so slow means he is at times a liability. No amount of coaching is going to help this problem though. He is as slow and knackered as he was at the start of last season. He is not a Paddy McCourt where he can disappear behind 'quality' players playing 'inferior' opposition for most of the match then pop up with a goal of the month candidate and be a hero. We need 11 at their best pretty much at all times. Whilst he has the foot he doesn't appear to have the genetics. A shame without a doubt. If he did right enough I'm pretty sure he would be away already.

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The one clear thing that came from last night's game was that John Sutton isn't a lone front man...... We need to go back to a 4-4-2 with Murphy and Sutton playing upfront together and Murphy is free to drop off the front in any part of the pitch which will cause defenders problems. .....I would persevere with Pollock on the left,

 

 

Spot on about Sutton and Murphy and I was surprised that we started with that formation and that it took so long to change it.

 

Jamie Pollock... a good propsect perhaps but he looked out of his depth last night. Needs another couple of years to mature.

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Nail hit on the head there for me. Our support (or certainly a percentage of those who post on here) must be the one of the hardest to please ever. In Ross Forbes, we have a fine footballer with a great left foot and a terrific eye for a pass- attributes definitely suited to a central midfielder. But the high expectations of our fans expect him to be a world beater in all eleven positions.

 

Lately on here we've seen people moan right, left and centre about the standard of Scottish Football. Part of the issue with the standard of Scottish Football in my opinion is that athleticism is often rated more highly than ability. Then we get a player who has ability and we shun him to a position that someone more "athletic" may be better suited to.

 

Do you think Southampton complained that Matt Le Tissier wasn't much of an athlete? No, they used them to the best of his ability, where he was most suited to play. If we just did the same for Ross Forbes we could get the best out of him. As Cloudy pointed out on a previous thread, you wouldn't catch Barcelona playing Xavi left midfield. A far smaller scale, but the same idea.

 

It is similar to Charlie Adam if you ask me, obviously again on a far smaller scale, but Adam was wasted in the role Rangers played him in, which led to him being criticised- but then he goes to a team who actually play him in a position that brings out the best in his ability and he shines.

 

Fully agree with yourself and Sieb.

 

Dilemma for me is whether he would be best suited to a sitting midfield role in tandem with a workhorse or playing behind the striker(s).

 

I know he has relatively poor fitness and struggles in wider position but FFS, for anyone to say he has no talent doesn't have a clue about fitba.

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the european games last season and a few months of the spl forbes was outstanding for us so hes shown hes got the ability.he definately has issues with fitness but we need to play him in a area that suits his style hes never suited to left midfield for me he should be played in behind the strikers hes a good passer of the ball and having someone like that playing there would give us more options on the park than just relying on wing play all the time.we never shoot from distance but atleast with forbes we know if hes 20 -25 yards out hell have a go.its typical of some of our fans that want rid of younger players as soon as they have a dip in form

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Maybe Forbes would be better suited to another (slower) league because you can have all the ability needed for this league but if you are visibly toiling after 10 minutes, unable to run with the ball due to lack of pace/speed, and look to get rid of he ball asap because of this weakness, even at times putting your defense under pressure, you aren't going to cut it.

 

 

Absolutely none of that was visable last night though. He was composed on the ball and knocked it about well. In fact he even beat players for pace a few times.

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Not that I saw COF. I saw a guy struggling for air very quickly into the match, getting closed down early, and putting his defence under pressure as the game progressed. I have nothing else to go on other than the fact he was hooked first to think McCall might have seen something similar to myself.

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Ross Forbes is a talented player, but crucially is short of pace and nothing will change that. That means he's going to struggle in the SPL. At the moment we are incapble of mounting a fast counter-attack up the middle and thats costing us. Last night was a case in point.

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I'm willing to give Forbes at least 3 starts in centre mid to see/remind us of what he can do. Let's face it with players leaving all over the place and none likely to come in we have to start utilising him sooner or later. We all know that the league for us is as good as over - we won't make the top six never mind Europe and won't be near relegation. I would let McCall use the league to experiment and find our best team/shape for the cups and we may have more than 1 Hampden outing this year.

 

I would like to see Forbes given a shot slightly at the tip of a Midfield 3. He is no winger and cant tackle either so no point sitting deeper. Let Lasley and Jenno sit infront of the back 4 remaining pretty solid. Humphrey and Murphy either side of Sutty in a front 3/midfield5 in defence. I honestly think, given what we have this is the way forward. McHugh looked decent in the wide/forward role give hime a shot out there too.

 

---------DR---------

 

SS---SC----MR----SH

 

-----SJ------KL-----

 

--------RF---------

-CH---------------JM

--------JS----------

 

 

Something like that. ;)

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So...effectively how we played last night then?

 

 

Really? I was under the impression Forbes played wide left, hence everyone banging on about how he is never a winger/unfit/too slow/runs like a rape victim etc...

 

If we did line up like I suggested we should then forget it - we are fucked!

 

Unless of course we sign a Left Winger. Although they seem as easy to find as rocking horse shit, we haven't had a proper one in bloody years!

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we've got the same problem with Forbes, as we did have with Gow. Both probably best suited to play just behind the front one or two. However, we dont play that way. So what do we do?

Someone commented that Pollock appeared unready for the first team. Whilst, he may be right, that's all we have outside 11 players, and if he does play, then you can be sure, he will become another whipping boy. The boy is class, but again he aint a left midfield player.

 

years gone by that 19 and under player would have served his apprenticeship in the reserves, unless they were exceptional players. The jump from u19s to first team is huge, and given that player develope at different stages, many good players will fail, especially in front of impatient fans. Why have an u21 rule for player to sit on bench, when we dont have an u21 team?

 

How many players are available for free at this part of the season. I reckon the best we will do is loan signings.

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It's unbelievable that people can say Pollok was out of his depth last night based on his 15 mins on the park when the whole team was rank rotten. The young guy needs a couple of games to find his feet, just like any other player. To say he is out his depth based on 15 mins is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Last night, apart from 20 mins of the first half, we were absolutely clueless and completely ineffectual. Chris Humphrey is such a frustrating player. He's got pace to burn but has very little belief in his own ability. Last night, he wasn't interested, in fact, he was hiding in my opinion. On the couple of occassions he did attack the full back, he went past him. You can see something is there but his problem comes from a lack of self belief.

 

As for Forbes, I didn't think he was too bad last night. I agree about the opinion of playing him just behind the front two with Lasley and Jennings sitting in behind. It'd certainly be interesting to see how he could cope there.

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We have a very thin squad which on current evidence looks as though it may stay that way for the remainder of the season.

 

We have no money for transfers or for improving wages and again that's not something that's likely to be changing anytime in the future.

 

People need to face the plain simple truth - we have too many players that turn in a good performance once in a while but then it turns into a guessing game as to when they are likely to repeat it.

 

Its no good screaming and yelling at them for not being any good because they are what they are for better for worse. Thats why they are plying their trade in the SPL with us.

 

Other SPL teams suffer from the same problem - that's why there is no real form in the SPL (outwith maybe Rangers, Celtic and Hearts) because it depends very much on which players in which teams have a good game.

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I would love for Ross Forbes to be as fuckin' awsome as some people think he is, absolutely love it.

I'm no Interested in arguing with ye all and getting into yer wee petty slagging matches (same folk all the time, by the way) but if ye think that Forbes has shown any Talent in the last 12 months, I think you are mistaken.

 

 

Can I also ask, we were playing Sutton up front himself, from reports and some peoples comments on here Murphy was playing wide left, Where was our hero Forbes playing? few folk on here suggesting it was wide left, but that appears to have been contradicted a few time now. So who is right?

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I'm going to put it out there and say I'm right. Murphy and Humphrey wide, Sutton through the middle and Jennings, Lasley and Forbes as a compact midfield 3.

 

Murphy was pushing forward to join Sutton when possible, but not as effectively as he was on Sunday.

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I would love for Ross Forbes to be as fuckin' awsome as some people think he is, absolutely love it.

I'm no Interested in arguing with ye all and getting into yer wee petty slagging matches (same folk all the time, by the way) but if ye think that Forbes has shown any Talent in the last 12 months, I think you are mistaken.

 

 

Can I also ask, we were playing Sutton up front himself, from reports and some peoples comments on here Murphy was playing wide left, Where was our hero Forbes playing? few folk on here suggesting it was wide left, but that appears to have been contradicted a few time now. So who is right?

 

i agree its the same folk on the same side of the same fences.

 

Some like myself will never see the value in berating a young player the way that it happens either on here or in the East stand. It's fundamentally counterproductive.

 

Of course Ross Forbes has hardly kicked a ball in 12 months - because well because he's harly kicked a ball - aye he's taken a couple of steps back.

 

He's better playing a more anchored cetral role - collecting and passing. that's a view held by a few.

 

He got a start a few months back at Fir Park and he played wide left and - running at defences isn't the thing we should be asking him to do for 90 mins.

 

If we go back 18 months to the start of last season he had some great games and some good games and then he ran out of steam - so we all should know what he's 'capable' of. The goal at McDairmid on the opening day of the season being a particular peach.

 

He need to build his confidence and he need support - not a total berating. Or to be made a scapegoat for an away defeat in what was his first start in a while.

 

The view from those that were there were mixed - that's fine. Some said he did OK others said he was shite that's fine as well.

 

But we had folk on here that weren't at the game - hearing that he was on the teamsheet, blaming him for the loss and dismissing him as shite within 10 mins of the final whistle. That's wrong

 

It's been asked a thousand times on here - what actual purpose does that serve?

 

I'd rather support him as a product of our youth - week in week out hoping that he returns to form and gets a spell in his favoured position than some Spanish charlatan Mo Johnston equivalent that 'only wants to play for' any half arsed outfit stupid enough to give him a trial.

 

if you actually read the thread - you'd see no-one said he was a world beater. folk are just asking for him to be given a chance and a bit of support to regain what he showed 18 months ago.

 

If you want to defend your right to paste him (or any other whipping boy of the month) then that's cool too though.

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You know what I agree with Busta - yet again. (Sorry Busta)

 

I'd love Forbes to turn out to be a great player and rub my fuckin nose right in it. Apart from a few games a long, long time ago I just don't see it happening and I'm not optimistic that it will. There must be a reason why he isn't getting played or picked.

 

Maybe if we had a better standard of player around him he might be able to show his stuff. But that isn't going to be the case at Motherwell we need player that can put a real shift in and not be blowing out of their arse within 20 mins.

 

I don't scream and shout at the guy at the games, but I'm entitled IMO to come on here and voice an opinion. I wasn't at the Utd game granted but the opinions of those that were at the game are as mixed about him as those that weren't. But their opinions on that particular game are obviously more valid than mine.

 

But as I say more than happy to be proved wrong and will happily come on here and say that I was wrong. As long as in the end it is all for the benefit of MFC.

 

But in the end this is just people mouthing off on a football forum.

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